speaker-0: Spacefare. Hey guys, what's up? It's WTUFO, this is Caleb. How are you today? Talking with UF Ozzy, aka Reese Dalton Morgan in this episode. Great guy, really cool conversation, had some very interesting things to say. Super thoughtful. I think it's really, really fun. I think you're gonna enjoy it. Just wanna quickly note that you can support the show on patreon.com slash WTUFO or on the YouTube channel at what the UFO, I believe. And ⁓ either of those places will help the show continue to exist. It's sort of... doesn't make money, it makes a little bit negative money because I pay for some software and the amount of money that I get from our amazing supporters is fantastic, but it basically keeps the show either a little bit in the red or just barely in the black. So if you could help us out, if you're enjoying the show, it would mean a ton to me if you could help this show not be in the red every week. That would be so great. I would deeply appreciate it. You may have noticed I try to keep the ads. really limited. I don't do mid-roll ads on YouTube only at the beginning and then not in the middle of the episode because I think they're awful in the middle of episodes. I really hate them when I listen to things and I would imagine that you do too. And so far I haven't put any ads in the podcast version so if you want to listen you are not burdened by advertisement of any kind. So what I would ask in exchange is if you're enjoying the show please support us for like one to five bucks a month something like that. One cup of coffee a month you know wouldn't wouldn't hurt. and the show will continue to exist. And you're going to contribute to our collective mission of expanding the conversation around this fascinating subject. It's a sort of essentially an activist project to get more people to think and care about it and engage with it carefully and thoughtfully and ⁓ figure out what's going on as well as processing our potential collective responses and individual responses, I imagine. In fact, there's some good stuff about that in here. So I hope Without further ado, that you enjoy this conversation between me and UF Aussie. Here you go. What the UFO? I'm here with Reese. He's an Australian researcher and investigator. Reese Dalton Morgan. Did I say that all right?

speaker-1: You did, okay, thanks mate, yeah, perfect. Yeah, that's the double barrel shotgun last name, so yeah, thanks for having me.

speaker-0: Hey, thank you for joining me. I'm really glad to meet you. I've seen some of your stuff online. You were saying you've seen some of mine. This is basically like a first encounter. We're gonna have a fun conversation. See how it goes.

speaker-1: Wicked. Yeah, plenty to discuss, man. Great time to sort of be a part of the conversation. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to getting into it.

speaker-0: Totally agree. ⁓ Conversation is kind of like the lifeblood of this show's idea. This is the only thing that we bring to the table is basically just talking about it, processing, feeling our way through and ⁓ hearing as many people's perspectives as we can. So I'd love to start with just a high level question for you about the situation. How do you think about the UFO phenomenon?

speaker-1: Ooh, yeah, well, God, that's a big question, isn't it? I think, well, the phenomenon right now is probably at the height of the public interest, I'd say, in terms of where we've been for a long time, given what's going on with government disclosure, given what's going probably also in the social scene. I think there's a lot of engagement from the entertainment perspective side of things too. ⁓ And... given that this has been going on for a long time, probably 80 years or so since World War II really, ⁓ we're really reaching ⁓ an inflection point in terms of how the conversation is about to be broken up, because I think generally people now realise there probably is something going on for the people that are invested in this, but as to what it is, that's really where we reach I think a lot of conflicting ideas and discussions because the phenomenon itself in terms of UFOs and whatever else that encapsulates is so much broader and more diverse than I think just the narrow interpretation of UFOs, aliens, extraterrestrials. I think there's a lot more that gets bucketed into it and you can already see the sort of narrative control going on from different perspectives, whether it's religious, whether it's sociological, whether it's political. I think we're seeing a lot of different interpretations and people really wanting to actually steer. this conversation because it is so profound.

speaker-0: Yeah, true. What do you think is going on with the phenomenon? Like as objects, do you have a leading theory? Do you have a batch of theories? Are you sort of agnostic and you're not there yet? Like, do you feel like we have strong evidence that we're looking at non-human technology or do you think like there's a reasonable chance that we could all be confused? And this is mostly like a combination of secret government technology, atmospheric phenomena, like just widespread human confusion from different sources or something else.

speaker-1: Yeah, look, I think there probably is a combination of things going on in terms of what you're labeled there. But I think there is evidence, especially circumstantial and depending on where you're looking, that there are objects of unknown origin operating in the sky. And I think if you go down to the individual level with the experiences that people have been having since the encounters and the abduction phenomenon and also just general high strangeness across the board. ⁓ There is something that's beyond probably ourselves in a sense that's occurring. As to what it is, I think that's the big question. ⁓ We are getting reports where there's multiple sensors picking up UFOs. So we've got like a physical tangible object that appears that can be detected on radar, optics. It's visually corroborated by multiple witnesses. And there's also cases of physical traces. So you have burn marks. ⁓ You can also have levels of radiation or health or biological effects as well. So there is something that's there. As to what it is and how it comes to be, I think is sort of an open-ended question because what we may be seeing in terms of the physical object, ⁓ it may not be the actual form or its true state in which it exists. That may just be the sort of conduit or the tool in which is used to sort of interact with us potentially. or it's materialized in that way to engage with us because I've started more to lean towards the idea that the UFO isn't necessarily a vehicle but it's more to do with something with engaging with us and that's sort of where my research has probably been leading me more down towards as to what it is I'm still not sure but I change my mind all the time, all the time.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's really strange how unstable the topic is. I find myself really convinced of one idea one day and pretty skeptical the next. And I sort of drift back toward agnosticism, but I'm too curious to be disinterested. Like I can't just shrug and go, ⁓ well, I don't know what it is. I really want to know what it is. And I really want to know like binary bucket. whether it is or is not a non-human technological entity or entities of some kind. Like whether those things are spiritual and alien or time travelers, like they've been here forever, they live in different dimensions. I don't really care. I mean, I want to find out, but like the first thing I really want to know is are there intelligences that are not human that are operating these craft? But can you say more a little bit about the... the idea that they're not in some sense objects that are, is that what you were kind of getting at that they might be, we might be perceiving something that's a part of a reality that we don't completely understand?

speaker-1: Yeah, potentially. Well, look, I think, as I said, if you look across the board in terms of all the different experiences that are encapsulated, there's a lot of strange effects that occur from people that encounter these things. And I don't think it's just tailored or specific to just a physical interaction with a craft. I think when we look at the psychic effects, there's a huge argument to be made that there's something going on with consciousness and perception. and the craft appears potentially almost to be the interface with our consciousness as well. And that's a broad brush to paint. But when you think about how the experience occurs for the individual, for example, the extremely profound life-changing encounters, and I don't think they're potentially as random as they appear. In a lot of the work that I've been trying to do, I've been really trying to look up why these experiences are what they are and when they happen and what they're really about. And I think if you look at a lot of cases, ⁓ for example, we can take the three school, like we take school cases from Ariel, there's Westall here in Australia in 66. There's another one called Crestview Elementary School in Opelocker, Florida in 1967. And the UFOs appear to arise at those schools and engage with those children. And it's deliberate. in the way that they present themselves, the way that they're showing themselves. And I think if you look at a lot of experiences as well, people sort of seem to stumble across UFOs or have an encounter. And if you think about how incredibly complex and dynamic the UFO phenomenon appears to be, it has the means to not be able to show itself or potentially be visible at all. It has this ability to sort of disappear or dematerialize or cloak or... Why does it show itself at all if it has that capability? So when you have these people that have these dramatic encounters where it sort of appears right in front of them and sometimes other people can't see it, it's just a couple people that are perceiving it. It's like it's showing those people something at a certain time for a reason. And I think that leads to the idea that there's something going on here where it wants certain people's attention at certain times for an impact of some sorts. And I can't be certain as to what. ⁓ But I don't think it's just a vehicle with beings. Beings may be a part of the craft in a sense that's created for the experience.

speaker-0: Fascinating. And that would kind of jive with the various form factors over the years. Like I think fairly frequently about the weird airship sightings in the late 1800s where they're looking at like some steampunk style UFO that people are flying, like human looking people and their sightings all across America. there airship sightings in Australia or is that a North American phenomenon?

speaker-1: Yeah, no, I haven't heard of any airship sightings in Australia, but we obviously have indigenous culture here in Australia. And the dreaming and the dream time is a massive part of an ancient history here recorded. And a lot of the phenomenon or the phenomena that fall into this sort of category that we're looking at, ⁓ whether it's cryptoterrestrials or beings or just places of energy and power and strange experiences, that's all encoded in their tradition and history as well. So whether it's the same thing, and it materializes or manifests in a different form depending on the cultural lens or the cultures sort of understanding of the world and the universe at the time. That's a big question mark, but I do agree that there is a range of flexibility with the phenomenon. I think a lot of people want to just look at the UFO as a technological craft. And I think it does appear as a technological craft in the way that we are experiencing it right now. But an argument I almost don't like to look at is, If you look at cultures, for example, where a lot of their interpretations of mythology or tradition or, you know, we would call them belief systems, you know, it may be revolved around nature, for example. The gods represent God of the earth, God of water, God of the skies. And, you know, if we look at society today, we don't, we're moving away from religion. That's been happening probably since the 1900s. In a sense, there's been probably as Western. society's made for a focus on science, technology has become a lot more of the basis of what we base our beliefs in. And does the phenomenon appear in a technological sense because we no longer have that sort of belief system in religion, where previous cultures were tied to the land, it may appear as a natural system or a being of the environment and so forth. I don't know, but it's something to consider, I think.

speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. It's also really weird that this persistent secrecy goes all the way through that. think you're right to identify this significant question, another binary box here, it either is or isn't connected meaningfully to folklore, historic tradition, which is obviously big part of the human experience that most post-Enlightenment thinkers have dismissed as fancy, but it is like... deeply entwined in our history and our narratives, all different cultures in different ways. ⁓ So either we're being visited by something that is also secretive and just like fairies and gnolls and goblins have been secretive or whatever, ⁓ or there's some meaningful overlap or many things that presented as, I started being superstitious about. the word fairy because I heard somebody say the like, superstition is you're supposed to call them the good people or the little people or something. And ever since I heard that, I'm like, ⁓ shit, like, are the fairies going to come get me if I say their name out loud? And I was looking at your YouTube page and I know that you I noticed that you have a fairy story. Would you would you be interested in talking about that at all or just like unpacking a little bit more of your thinking about the potential overlap between the phenomena?

speaker-1: Yeah, so look, I was really humming and ah-ing about sharing that experience because it is so outlandish. And I think for someone like myself that's really trying to sort of stay grounded in, think, focusing on the facts and the evidence that we can accumulate and trying to piece it together with what's available, you know, my experience in itself is almost unexplainable from when I was young. And I'm just a normal guy and, you know, I'm invested in this topic for a multitude of reasons. you know, very much because of my family connection. But when I was, yeah, sort of nine or 10 years old, I grew up in a small country town in South Australia, and I went to a primary school called McClaren Vale, and in grade four, I was just sitting in music class, and basically we were sitting in a circle, the teacher had a triangle instrument, she was teaching the students how to play it, and just the girl next to me, her name was Adeline, she just like leaned in to stare at the bottom of my right shoe as my legs were crossed. tucked under my left knee. And she was really intensely staring at the bottom of my shoe. And she said, oh my God, you stepped on a fairy. And I was just a normal kid. Like I just grew up playing footy and my grandfather had been in the military. So I had like a military background family. was into soldiers and guns and toy swords. So fairies were never on the radar. And I couldn't believe what I was hearing. So I almost thought she was joking. And then I leaned to look in and then on the bottom of Yeah, my right shoe, so in the tread or the crease line of my shoe, there was an all gold humanoid ⁓ with wings and it was crammed into the tread or the crease. It was about an inch long and I couldn't believe what I was looking at. So yeah, I leaned in to look closer because I was fascinated by toy figurines and soldiers and I thought, what the hell am I looking at? It's all gold, flat gold. And as I looked closer, this thing was like a It was so real, was shocking. It really took me by surprise in the sense that I was sort of overwhelmed by what I was looking at and I couldn't stop staring at it. And I continued to look at it it was sort of hairless. It had a humanoid face, its eyes were closed, but it was so detailed that I could see sort of the crease lines along where its eyelids were, where its eyes were closed. It had no sexual body parts, no breasts, yeah, no. No sexual organs, hands, toes, fingers, legs, and it was dead. yeah, I was kind of overwhelmed with a sort of wave of emotion looking at this thing. And I took my shoe off and continued to look at it closer. And it was just so detailed and so visceral. I felt like I was almost in a trance when I was staring at it. And then I don't know how long, how much time went by when I was looking at this thing, but the school bell rang all of a sudden. And then the teacher said, yeah, Reese, put your shoe on, I gotta lock the door, because other students had started to go out the room and I was still sitting there looking at this thing. I was like, Miss, Miss, there's a fairy on my shoe. And I think she thought I was completely nuts. And she said, Reese, put your shoe on, I have to go. And I was like, no, look, seriously, Miss, there's a fairy on my shoe. And she said, Reese, put your shoe on, I have to lock the door. So Reese says, I gotta go. And... I was sort of frustrated holding up my shoe trying to show her and she was, I don't even remember if she looked or not and I just put my shoe on, didn't want to step down because I was afraid if I stepped down the thing might fall out. So I hopped to outside the classroom door, it a portable classroom and then sat on the top stair to take my shoe off and pull my right foot up to have a look and the thing was gone. And I panicked and ran, scrambled back into the classroom before she'd shut the door and started fumbling around trying to look for this thing. and scanning my hands through the carpet and just couldn't find it and you know, obviously was shattered because I had sort of seen something so incredible and wanted to tell everyone and prove to it that it was real but it just disappeared and yeah, that experience obviously changed my life dramatically because I had encountered something really incredible that I wanted to tell everyone that was real and you know, I would blabber on about it nonstop and no one would believe me and Adeline had seen it with me so there was, you know, was corroboration. she'd been the first one to see it and she was distraught and looking and thinking that I'd killed this thing. yeah, from then on my sort of mindset in the way that I sort of perceived the world was completely altered forever because I knew that there may be things that can't be explained or I sit in this sort of realm which are anomalous. yeah, that experience traumatized me because I tried to tell a lot of people about it and no one obviously believed me and rightly so and fairly so that I just sort of stopped. stopped speaking about it and then that's when I decided sort of to come out and do a video when I started to investigate a lot more into the phenomenon that there were so many people having anomalous experiences outside of just what we call the UFO phenomenon. And I thought it important to share to kind of help people understand that I think there's a lot more to this than just UFOs and aliens.

speaker-0: That is one of the weirdest parts about the whole world of investigating this is you start going, ⁓ my gosh, are like 17 other things real that I always thought were not? Do you mind if I ask you a couple of just like small questions about this? ⁓ Did you say hairless? Like no hair on its head this being?

speaker-1: Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. Completely bald, yeah, no hair, yeah.

speaker-0: and no clothing.

speaker-1: No clothing, yeah, so almost just like a sort of flat sort of upper body and yeah, no sexual body organs or anything. It was just like completely genderless almost.

speaker-0: I kind of assumed when you said fairy wings, but were there no wings? Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, there were. So the wings were, they were like a dragonfly, but they were pointed and the strange, yeah, so they were in like an X pattern, literally like a dragonfly, but because of the tread of the crease, they had been crushed back across one another. So if they sat like that, they'd been folded back across one another, crushed. ⁓ And yeah, this thing was, yeah, it was absolutely dead. I... I was disturbed by the sort of staring at it shocked me because I was like, Jesus, this thing's actually gone.

speaker-0: What in the I'm sorry to ask another follow up but Okay, well I apologize if this is ⁓ Rude, but I'm wondering like what made you confident that it was Something other than like a strange surprising looking insect

speaker-1: I'm sorry. Yeah, well that was when I first caught the glimpse of the gold, my mind was instantly searching for rational explanations for what I was looking I was like, this is probably a dragonfly, right? When I first looked at it. But as I looked in, the detail on this thing was, yeah, incomprehensible. I can't describe how vivid this thing was. And the strangest part about it is it didn't feel like I was looking at anything I'd ever seen before in reality. It's hard to describe, but it was so visceral. And I think the thing that affected me so much about it is it was emotional that it sort of brought up this feeling within me. I speak about how a few months before that event, my cat had been bitten by a snake and killed. And it was my first time as a kid encountering sort of death. And this thing brought up these sort of raw emotions at me looking at it. ⁓ I wasn't a stupid kid, if that makes sense. I was. always interested and curious about things. In fact, probably to my own detriment. know, teachers probably thought I was probably a bit of a nuisance because I was constantly, probably, yeah, pushing the competitions too far. it was more so that I had collected like toy figurines and I was interested in the world already. I loved the detail. Like I was like a detailed person, even at a young age. That's what I was like. And staring at this bloody thing, I just... I knew what I was looking at was a human or a humanoid thing. Like it was a, it wasn't an insect because it had a body, it had fingers, toes, hands, it had a humanoid face, you know, it had ears. And I think, yeah, a lot of people would say, oh, kids imagination play tricks on them. Maybe someone said, you know, you made the assumption that it was a fairy, but you have to remember that I... There was no preconceived notion as to why I would assume this would be a fairy other than that she had said, ⁓ my god, you stepped in a fairy and I didn't believe her. And then when I looked, what I saw was something completely unexplainable, but yeah, it wasn't an insect, I'll say that much. It was very detailed.

speaker-0: God, that's ⁓ fascinating and yeah, I can imagine traumatizing and also magical, but sad. I would imagine it hit really hard.

speaker-1: Yeah, well, I was guilty, you as a kid, I sort of convinced myself that I had been responsible for killing this thing, that I somehow stepped on it. ⁓ you know, Adeline was almost in tears when she had seen this thing and, you know, made me feel guilty that I had killed this sort of fairy, as ridiculous as it sounds. But yeah, I was like, well, there's unimaginably incredible out there and I've just sort of destroyed it. And as I said, It kind of all sat with me and I didn't really know what to make of it at the time. And as I said, as time went on, I sort of stopped speaking about it and kind of almost put it behind me, but it was always there. And yeah, the thing that was so powerful about it was an emotional experience. wasn't just, I saw something. was emotionally affected by this whole event. And even still within me today, yeah, it's not an easy thing to talk about. because of everything that happened after, everything that sort of affected me about it and what I thought. So yeah, it's a tough one.

speaker-0: Well, thank you for sharing. Did you talk to Adeline more about it over the years or did you guys just kind of leave the subject?

speaker-1: No, I haven't spoken to her recently. I've been trying to actually get in touch with her. So I've connected with a friend back in South Australia. I left Adelaide the year after that and came to Sydney, so in grade five. And yeah, I hadn't spoken to anyone in that area for, well, yeah, I'm 35 now and I was like nine or 10 years old then. So I've been trying to get back in touch with her and I've been speaking through a mate to try and connect us through to her to speak about it because yeah, it would obviously be fantastic for the story for her to come forward. and corroborate what we saw there together. Because I always make the point that it wasn't me that saw this originally. She had spotted it and pointed out, I never would have seen it if it wasn't for her. So she's a really important witness to this experience. as I said, ⁓ it was just as think intense for her because of how she responded.

speaker-0: Wow, so you mentioned earlier that you had a family connection and that was the main thing that you had followed into UFO world. Was I reading that right? I'm sorry that I don't know about it, but would you feel comfortable explaining a little?

speaker-1: No, don't apologize. Yeah, mate, of course. Yeah, well, ⁓ it's a fascinating story and it's really sort of how I got into the UFO field. I'd always been interested in UFOs since after high school and I think once 2017 came along, like a lot of people, I became a lot more closely aligned and starting to dive into this topic from the New York Times article. But a couple of years ago, I read Ross Coldheart's book, In Plain Sight. And within that book, there was a section. about sightings at a place called the Wumara Test Range. And the Wumara Test Range is ⁓ the largest land-based military testing range in the world. It's in South Australia where I grew up, but in the middle of the state it's huge. The testing range is the same size as the United Kingdom right now. And it's just a desert and it's an enclosed sort of designated classified area depending on what section you're in. My grandfather ran this test range for 27 years. It's how my family came to be in South Australia. So he was relocated from the Royal Air Force in the UK to manage Britain's advanced weapons and technology tests in Australia for the British at a place called the Womera Test Range. when I saw these cases in the Womera book, I went, shit, you my grandfather. He worked there, so I reached out to Ross and said, hey Ross, just read your book, great book. Just wanna introduce myself. My grandfather ran Woolmer off for sort of 27 years. Have you heard of him? And he said, no, I haven't. Why don't you go to the archives to try and get his records? And six months down the track, going back and forth with the defense department, I was denied his records from the Woolmerer test range. And this was after sort of having multiple sort of books and documents that had confirmed that he'd. being who he was and ran the range operations at Woolmer and was the chief scientific officer at Weapons Research Establishment at the Woolmer Test Range. But when the Defense Department blocked me, I went, I've got to find more information about this. So I started doing my own research and very strangely, I came across a testimony documented by a scientist here in Australia who's a UFO researcher called Bill Chalker. And it was a witness testimony. from my grandfather about a UFO sighting he'd encountered during the launch of a nuclear Black Knight rocket on the Womera test range in 1958 or 1959. And he'd been given this testimony from the senior Royal Australian Air Force public relations officer, man named Ken Llewellyn, who had known my grandfather and had gone back and forth to England with him ⁓ for the Battle of Britain commemoration. Because my grandfather was a famous World War II. RAF fighter pilot ace. So he was a very, very highly respected and esteemed individual. That's why he was given this task down in Woomera to run this for the British. But as I dug into this more and connected with Bill and looked at this case, you my grandfather was setting up for this Black Knight rocket. It was Britain's first launch project. And it was at night and all of a sudden my grandfather got a call over the telecom system from someone called. Lieutenant Percy Hawkins who was down range 100 miles. So where the ICBM would go up into the atmosphere and then the warhead would separate and then would re-enter into the atmosphere and then come down at this launch site, Percy Hawkins was waiting where they would collect the material from the re-entry of the body. And he said to my grandfather, hey, there's a bright light moving at a very high speed towards where you guys are at the control tower. And my grandfather with Alan Mull, who was running the rocket launch with him, they went out with six others and stepped out onto the tower of the test control tower where the launch pad was and started to look for this. And sure enough, they picked up the bright light moving at high speed. And then it came down in at about 5,000 feet and it circled around over top of the site. And my grandfather described that it was a circular vehicle with a bright light illuminating the circular shape. and that there was a copolar-like cabin on top of the disk, and that it basically circled around the site and then shot off to the east up into the direction of outer space at a speed he estimated at far greater than Mach 2, and basically wrote that the speed, the angle of rate, the climb, the trajectory, the circular shape were all unknown capabilities. beyond what they understood of aerodynamics and physics at the time. And yeah, he had written five reports and sent these out to the Defense Department, weapons research establishment, back to London. And... ⁓

speaker-0: five reports about this one sighting.

speaker-1: Yeah, to different areas. Yeah, so to different departments and areas within sort of the Woolmerer Test Range, because there was a few different parties involved with this. And we've been trying to find the reports, but thankfully I ended up, through a strange sequence of events, connecting with someone called Clive Williams, who is a Battle of Britain ⁓ author, who writes basically a lot of the biographies and the testimonies of fighter pilots from World War II and the RAF. and he wrote my grandfather's biography and he had the written transcript of my grandfather's account of the sighting. So we were able to get that. He had it. Cool. Yeah, this led me speaking to someone as well called ⁓ Dr. David Clark in the UK who Bill Chalker connected with me. And he's the one who actually unearthed the Rendlesham documents in the UK. He's a very good archival researcher there. And Dr. David Clark said that he had spoken to my grandfather two years before he had died and confirmed the Woolmerer testimony. He'd connected through Clive Williams to speak with him, but also that he had served, he expanded that he had served on a secret joint United States Air Force and Royal Air Force committee in the late 1940s that had investigated UFOs. And that they had determined that 3 % of sightings could not be explained. He wouldn't name the committee and why he was on it. but that there was more to this story and couldn't go into further about it. And that was the beginning of obviously me launching myself full in knowing that my grandfather had never told me anything about UFOs, had always been interested and then learning that he had been deeply involved and a part of this phenomenon. ⁓ my God. Yeah.

speaker-0: So you never got to talk to him about it or when you talked to him about it, he just acted like there was nothing to talk about.

speaker-1: No one in the family knew. He never spoke to anyone in the family about it. My grandfather told me a lot of his war stories and we were close. So he grew up, he was living near us in South Australia down in Adelaide when I grew up there. And so we spent time together. Like I said, would play, you he played rugby with me and passed the ball with me and yeah, we were close. So we'd never spoken about it. And no one in my family even had mentioned UFOs in me growing up. So to learn that like my grandfather had actually you know, had his own siding, and let alone been involved in Air Force investigations at the highest level, you my family was just as shocked because they thought this was a man who was very highly respected amongst sort of our family and all of his achievements. His story in itself is incredible from his war history, his involvement within the Defense Department, but at Walmora, it changed the way that people would look at him now.

speaker-0: That's incredible. And that must have been pretty early in his tenure. You said he ran it for like 28 years, right? But that was 1954. So did he go on to run the range for another 15, 20 years, something like that?

speaker-1: Yeah, so he arrived at Woomera in 55 and ⁓ that sighting was in 58 or 59. We haven't got the exact date. yeah, the 50s and 60s were sort of the peak of the British advanced weapons trials from rockets and you know, there was nuclear weapons testing happening there as well at another site within the, excuse me, in the Woomera test range called Maralinga and Emu Fields and he was involved in that as well. Yeah, after he had been sort of range operations manager of the Wumara Test Range, he moved into a role called Chief Scientific Officer of Weapons Research Establishment. And Weapons Research Establishment were basically like the contractor task with managing the Wumara Test Range for the British and the Australian collaboration. ⁓ So he was back and forth between the range and running a lot of the negotiations with people like the United States and France and the UK for contracts and projects to come there to Wumara. and making sure operations while we're all on task. But there's a lot more to his story that hasn't been told or uncovered yet because I do believe that he is a crucial piece to sort of the Five Eyes Australian-British connection with the UFO topic. that's a lot of what my first sort of, I wrote an article and did a video about it. His role in this is far more, I think, greater and important than has been told. So I'm really hoping to try and get to the bottom of that.

speaker-0: Wow, man, really cool source of information to explore and it must be fascinating for you to get that personal connection and learn so much interesting stuff through it. I wonder if it might be interesting to ask you just generally how you think about investigating the topic currently. Like what interests you the most? What are you curious about? do you think? you, how do you like to move forward ⁓ investigating, exploring, uncovering, reporting? what's your kind of favorite flavor of the phenomenon right now? And like, how do you plan to spend the next couple of years thinking and working on it?

speaker-1: Yeah, it's a great question. I'm very varied in the work that I do. I'm deeply invested in the historical sense, because I think a lot of the work that's recorded in the 50s and the 60s really brings out the true nature of how incredible the phenomenon was at that point. Because a lot of people will say, ⁓ maybe we inherited technology or black projects from post-World War II, and these could be mixed in with that bag. And what we're seeing is know, potentially a technology that's just never been revealed. And that's possible and I don't rule that out, but I do think a lot of cases can be made that these sightings that were recorded in history almost seem to kind of rule out potentially that possibility given the time and what was going on. But I'm also deeply invested in the experiencer cases. And I think a lot of the people that come as close to this as... as you can, whether it's abduction or whether it's some sort of profound altered sort of sense of reality with an engagement with an unknown source of this phenomena. Those details are crucial to looking at as well what's happening. So I'm kind of all over the shop in the sense of what I really think is important. But yeah, I really think the consciousness aspect is important and perception, but also the nature of reality. ⁓ I think there's a bigger picture happening here and it's easy to get locked into just the UFO extraterrestrial phenomenon and narrative. But as I said, even with expanding out and sharing my sort of own fairy experience, if you actually like the people that spoke to me personally and reached out and shared their accounts of an anomalous encounter that they've experienced, the parallels with some of the lead up to UFO events are startling. And the similarities in a sense of how the events occur and the sort of altered states of consciousness and experience. I'm fascinated by what the truth of this all really means. And I'm not afraid to go wherever it is to get at the heart of the issue. Because I think in the sense the phenomenon is deceptive and in shrouds itself to sort of deceive us or keep us from getting at the actual true source of the nature of it. But

speaker-0: I'm sorry, can I just ask to clarify, you were comparing people who had experienced two different things there, and were you saying like paranormal experiencers and UFO experiencers have very similar buildups to their experience? Was that right?

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely.

speaker-0: Yeah, so like a poltergeist versus an abduction or something.

speaker-1: Yeah, well, for example, like, so after I shared my sort of ferry encounter, I had a lot of people share their encounters. And I think something that stood out, which was really interesting, I had a lot of people describe to me that they would been sleeping and they woke up and they had this sort of subconscious sort of feeling to go out onto their balcony or go out onto their deck. And then all of a sudden a ferry might come down from the top of the tree and land on their balcony veranda. and they're going, ⁓ my God, what am I witnessing? And then it takes off, poof. And in a lot of UFO experiences as well, especially with abduction cases, but also just general experiences of UFOs in general, ⁓ you'll have people that will wake up in the middle of the night and sort of wander outside onto the deck and not really know why, almost like they're on autopilot for a UFO then appear to in the sky right in front of them, bang, right there. And so it's just sort of almost... I don't know how to describe it. It's like a sort of consciousness protocol which leads them to that sort of point in time for that experience. And there's a data point in that in itself and the absurdity of the events as well, you know, with how ridiculous they appear and they almost seem to discredit the experience or two. There's this sort of this element as well where people might see a gnome or a fairy ⁓ or an elf, whatever it is. Or, yep, exactly. And it's like it's been noticed and it turns and looks at them like, ⁓ no, they can see me. And then it disappears. And you hear very similar in cases with UFOs where people stumble across maybe a craft and there's beings and they're like picking berries or walking around doing something stupid. And they're like, realize they're being, they realize they're being noticed and they're like, ⁓ quick, get in the craft, boom, take off.

speaker-0: That's so weird.

speaker-1: So there's something going on there in the sense that it's almost like the, whatever this sort of experience is, is that it's trying to, I don't want to say pretend, but it's like it's designed to almost act like it's being caught in the act. Like this experience is sort of curated for a performance or theater perspective. It's bizarre, but there's a lot of parallels in the multitude of experiences across the board. So I think it's, I'm really interested in that.

speaker-0: Cool. You made me remember one of the only really weird things that I've had happen along these lines. It's really small one. I've never seen like a thing that I felt was for sure a UFO. But one night, ⁓ somewhere less than 10 years ago, I was outside and I was coming inside and I looked up at the, there was like a really good star night and the constellation of Orion was like really clear and I remember thinking like, ⁓ yeah, he's a hunter, right? He's like, maybe he's like drawing a bow. And I, so I like took a stance looking at the stars and I like pulled back a bow string and I released it. And the second I released it, a shooting star like glazed just right out of Orion, like as if I had just shot it from an air. It was so weird. Obviously, you know, possible, very strange coincidence, but like the whole buildup to

speaker-1: Wow.

speaker-0: doing it, it makes it like a vanishingly small, extremely weird. ⁓ And nothing else about it is weird. Like it didn't look like anything other than a shooting star. It was just like the fact that I was doing it. So every now and then I'll see Orion and I'll be like, you're going to do it tonight? And I'll do the arrow thing. It's never happened again.

speaker-1: ⁓ that's great. That and the part that you know, what are the probabilities of that occurring in terms of

speaker-0: don't even know how to calculate it, but small, one would think.

speaker-1: Yeah, and that feels personal, doesn't it? Like your whole thought process, the way you're thinking, the movement, like, could there be something more going on there where it's sort of, some kind of connection with the greater world around you and yourself? Like, it's hard to know, and we can jump to assumptions, but you can't rule anything out, I think, once you realize how strange and complex this whole subject is. It's all, it's as much to do with us, I think, as it is everything else around us.

speaker-0: That is so fascinating. I don't know why, but I find myself really resistant to the ooey gooey consciousness stuff. And I think maybe it's because it's like harder to, it's like a bigger challenge. It's more complex, it's more complicated, it's harder to describe, it's harder to imagine investigating thoroughly. Because like if the nature of reality isn't what we understand it to be, then also our tools for investigating reality probably aren't as stable as we think they are. And that really screws with the whole scientific method. I talked to Jeffrey Kripal, who kind of has this take that what, sorry, go ahead. He has a take that like it's in principle, it may be impossible to investigate some of this stuff. And I really resist that. I want the scientific method to be able to accommodate even the weirdest possible stuff. Like, okay, so there are fairies like.

speaker-1: No, no,

speaker-0: There was a time when we didn't think platypi were real, right? Like there were lots of animals that we used to think were fictitious and fanciful. And it's also like quite a natural response for creatures to avoid other creatures in the wild. So like it's believable that fairies and big feet and werewolves and whatever would just like naturally avoid human civilization. And we might not have a lot of evidence of them. But if you're telling me like the in principle, we couldn't. ever access like another realm of the world because like our minds are just part of ⁓ a world we can't examine in some meaningful way. I get A, a little lost and I get B, a little angry and I sort of like don't believe it. I wanna believe that science is fundamental no matter what kind of like substrate of reality we're living in. Do you think about this at all? Like do you feel like science could tackle this issue and just hasn't figured out how yet?

speaker-1: do, I absolutely do. I think, look, we're obviously limited by our own biological sort of set of senses. We're designed to see a very small percentage of the reality in the world around us, that's obvious. And that's because of the purpose that our bodies serve here. We're designed to eat, sleep, survive, right? but there's a whole broad band of spectrum, electromagnetic spectrum that exists around us that we can't perceive by the naked eye in our senses. Yet we know things exist within those spectrums. And we've even captured UFOs moving amongst infrared ultraviolet. Exactly, so it can sort of cross, yeah, it has a multi-spectrum capability. But in the sense of reality, right, I think,

speaker-0: switching between sometimes.

speaker-1: Looking at this is probably going to go into quantum mechanics or the quantum realm. And I think a lot of the strangeness and a lot of the consciousness sort of phenomena that we're experienced with psychic effects, you know, we haven't obviously come across it as of yet to have a sort of scientific method to explain it. But I do think at some point in time, as we sort of start to learn more about the phenomenon, we embrace it publicly, and we start to look at reality as something that's maybe not concrete. but connected, but also malleable. This is going to change, I think, the conversation because everyone wants to believe that the physical world is what we see it to be, right? And that what exists outside of it can't be proved by the scientific method. But if you even think about, for example, the way that reality is created from the observer perspective in quantum mechanics, that maybe collapsing the wave function actually brings reality into what it is. through observation, we're getting into the idea that each and every single one of us may play some small part into creating the world and the reality that we exist in today. And the UFO phenomenon challenges our understanding of the nature of consciousness, physical reality, the way that we perceive it, and the altered states in which people experience. think that tells us a lot. that there's something that we're missing about the way the world exists and the way that it works. And just because science is grounded in this sort of tangible physical proof doesn't mean that there isn't a scientific explanation for things that exist outside those boundaries. And we have to push the frontiers, we have to be brave enough to actually take on board that some of these things that appear impossible could absolutely be. a part of nature and a part of the world we exist in. we have to push that. what science is about. It's about trying to explore the unexplained and using the method. But yeah, we've got a long way to go. But I do think it is not just like a woo or a strange unexplainable kind of aspect of the world we live in. I think there is a process and a way to get there.

speaker-0: I I've talked to some even high woo scientists who say, you know, this should be when we all wake up to it, a really fantastic place for scientific research. And this is like a place where people could make some real headway in the, in the fields that haven't addressed these issues. And that could be true of both like the physics of UFOs and like, I don't know, the nature of conscious reality, as well as other weirder things, like after or into life spaces or like the nature of souls or spirit entities. ⁓ One of the best metaphors that I've heard so far, I really like, so just want to share in case it hasn't come up for you is that there's a meaningful way in which this process we're going through is like the early days of germ theory, where we discovered that there was just a ton of life all around us that we never knew was there. And like it's so and myriad that we, it's like all over us right now. are trillions of these little objects in the room with us and they're alive and they're different kinds of things. It's probably millions of different kinds of things just in the room. I don't even know what those numbers are. I know there are like trillions of these cells in our human bodies, which is like astounding and so weird also when you think about it. And so it could be that we're at the very edge of, of something like that in the UFO world. Maybe there are trillions of kinds of like little spirit entities or beings that exist in some like dark energy, dark matter sort of space that we can't physically interact with usually, but we've seen glimpses and we may be just at the dawn of mapping that space. So I just wanted to share that. thought it was a really useful metaphor.

speaker-1: It's great analogy. And I think it's perfect in the sense of what we're describing. Because there is something going on around us that we can't explain. where it's coming from is the big question. And when you think about the broader possibilities like that, what you're talking about, that they hadn't discovered that this whole basically world happens around us on a level that we're not perceiving because it was too small for that to be perceived, well, to be processed at that time. But yeah, there's going to come, I think, a point in time when we're going, wow. There may be multiple dimensions, there may be multiple spectrums, there may be something else entirely as well. Like there could be a consciousness substrate that exists that's intertwined with the quantum field all around us. And we're not able to get into that level of perception to understand it, but we may be able to develop the science to actually understand that it's there. yeah, I think the example that this is a frontier, I think we're very much at the frontier of. of the unknown world right now. And it's exciting, it's super exciting.

speaker-0: I agree and I like that framework that you just laid out about the difference between our ability to perceive and I would maybe add to look to understand to comprehend and the difference between our ability as scientists to describe this set of ideas. We may bump up against some things that we can't like feel in our bodies in the way we can't like really feel the concept of infinity or something, but we can write it out mathematically even if it's deeply counterintuitive and just always will be because of our biological hardware.

speaker-1: Exactly.

speaker-0: Well, cool. I wonder if there's any place you'd like to take this in our closing moments. Do you want to call to action people in America or Australia or listening elsewhere in the world? What do you think people should be doing about this who are interested and curious and have listened to 50 minutes of us talking about it?

speaker-1: Yeah, well, I think for anyone engaging in this topic, it's a process to acclimatize to the complexity of it. And even still, people that have been in it for a long time, there may be aspects of the phenomenon which challenge their ontology and the way that they see the world. And I think the most important thing with anyone looking at this topic is you have to be as objective as possible and you have to be as curious and as open-minded as possible. You can't let any sort of preconceived biases or basically interpretations of the world cloud what you are exploring when you do this. Because I do think this is contradictory in the nature that it exists. The phenomenon itself is almost a paradox and that any sort of ideas that you discover about what you think it could be, it can challenge those and upend them at any point in time. And you have to be open to all possibilities, right? But I do think as well, it's a very, personal and subjective journey. It's a personal experience exploring this phenomenon. And I don't think everyone who's out there who sits at the top of this sort of tree maybe from a national security apparatus or militaristic defensive perspective looking down at this has the full picture. I think there's always gonna be interpretations of what it is and what it could be. But you need to explore everything. and make sure that you listen and read and learn as much as you can so that you can try and actually understand this for what you may think it could be. Because I do think that it's as much about ourselves as it is as much about the phenomenon. And we may be the sort of intermediary with the way that this thing sort of expresses itself. And that's really gonna be crucial to trying to actually get at the heart of this issue. That's probably something that I would. I would lay advice for.

speaker-0: Well something I've often asked at the end of conversations ⁓ I'm curious about your take on is ⁓ What do you think about the project of potential communication in a public sense with some of these entities or with some of these forces? Whatever they are Clearly they have as you said selectively revealed themselves to people they've chosen over the years but they've chosen a sort of posture of secrecy as a dominant ⁓ framework of operating ⁓ Do you think, A, that it would be valuable for us to pursue some program of public communication attempts? And B, if you were thinking about doing that yourself, what would you want it to be like?

speaker-1: Yeah, it's a tough question because I think you have to be careful. I think with anything, if you want to engage with the unknown, you never know what you're really engaging with, right? And what you could invite in. And this is something that isn't, know, child's play, right? You know, we're dealing with things that are beyond us in a sense that appear powerful. ⁓ They can be intrusive and they can be, you know, they can conceal themselves from the public. but be absolutely real to you. If we are to engage in communication with non-human intelligence, if that's possible, can we trust the communication for what it really is? I think about how many experiencer accounts there are of people speaking to beings and craft and unknown phenomena and the things that they tell them that don't transpire or the beliefs that they sort of relay to them that don't. mean anything, but it appears so profound and important to the person at the time. And I think we have to step back and think about the phenomenon from a broader perspective where it may not be so much about what the communication is or what they're saying. It may be more about the experience in itself and that it's trying to tell us something. Because I think that the encounters that people have are life-changing, but trying to get at the detail and trying to interpret every different non-human intelligence's engagement with someone can just muddy the waters because there does appear to be this sort of, this blanket that protects the phenomenon in itself from getting at what it really is. And that is in part buying into what it says, what it does, what it tells us, right? So I think we have to be weary and we have to be objective in the way that we explore it. Because I don't think we're gonna get all the answers from the phenomenon. I think, as I said, there's something else going on here and it may be just an experiential means to an end potentially for a bigger picture that we're missing. And there's clues along the way from some people that have been involved with this. think Jim Lakatsky is absolutely one to watch with the way that he speaks about the phenomenon and the work that they've done at Orsap. And I think the fact that that part of Orsat Project consciousness is the most sensitive and classified component of their work that hasn't been revealed that they won't talk about, tells you that there's something else going on there, that this is a bigger conversation to be had that they don't want out in the public potentially, because I think it might open up a whole can of worms that people aren't really ready to explore as of yet. But I also think... Disclosure is about the truth and we should be willing to tell the public the nature of reality and we will come to terms with it one way or another.

speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. think ⁓ part of the hard part or one of the hard parts is is likely that nobody has all the answers and people don't want to bring half an answer to the public. This is going to freak you out, but it's very weird. And also, we can't explain it. That's it's a messy thing to say. ⁓ And I also found myself thinking like about a year into this. aliens would be so simple if it were just some beings in ships. And that was it. That would be pretty grockable.

speaker-1: And it might be, there might be, there might be as well, right? Like this is the thing.

speaker-0: It could well be. Well, to this point about germ theory, it's not like when we discovered amoebas that we found out that everything was amema or like they were all tardigrades. No, it's literally millions, maybe billions or trillions of these different kinds of things. Some of them are very dangerous. Some of them are really cute. Some of them are benign or just neutral or whatever. Could be like that here. But what we don't have is a tardigrade dressed up as an amoeba, to your point about this intentional deception, which makes everything. vastly more complicated. I wonder, is there anything else that you'd like to leave us with that you just like that came up for you in the conversation or you wanted to make sure we put on the table before we bring this conversation to a close?

speaker-1: I'm just probably on your last point there. We can't really rule out that there is extraterrestrials, that there is interdimensional beings, that there's time travelers, phenomena that exist from the ocean or whatever, whatever the possibilities are. And then there's also something which we call the phenomenon, which can mimic and imitate all those things. And we basket them all into one category, thinking, it's this one entire phenomenon that encapsulates everything. Yeah, I think we just have to be as open-minded as possible and yeah, we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions because everyone wants to tell, you know, their side of the story and what they think the phenomenon is and what it means. But we haven't seen enough data and we haven't seen enough information and transparency to jump to any conclusions to make a definitive sort of decision as to what this really is. Yeah, that's why I think it's important to explore all avenues, to explore all information, and just really take your time trying to come to terms with this and learn as much as you can. And make your own assessment too. Don't let someone sort of push you into thinking what something is because they seem like they're an authority on the topic. There are voices of reason and people that are far wiser who have been in this field for a lot longer than anyone else and we owe it to them. from the work that they've done. But remember that, as I said, I think this is very much a personal journey too, so we have to take our time in coming to terms with it in our own way as well.

speaker-0: Good advice, good call to action. And I would love to stay in touch over the years as we reveal more of this intriguing puzzle. Would you want to come back in a year or two, talk a little more?

speaker-1: Mate, of course, absolutely. I'm always happy to discuss this topic with like minds. It's a fascinating time to be a part of it. And we all play a part, right? This is a conversation that sits in the shadows. And we're trying to drive this publicly to get people invested and interested, because it is really important. This is the greatest scientific discovery in mankind, really, that we may not be alone or that there may be something else that exists within us or outside of us. So we have to continue to push this conversation so we get it out in the open.

speaker-0: Agree. Let's point people to your YouTube channel. It's at the UF-o-z, U-F-o-z-z-i-e. And it's just called the UF-o-z if you want to Google it. Is there anywhere else you'd like to direct people to engage with your work?

speaker-1: ⁓ Nah, that's fine. The UFOsie is fine, right? On YouTube, that's where a lot of my work does. I have a little blog as well, ⁓ which is the UFOsie 2, which you can just probably find through Google. But yeah, I'm on X as well. But generally, yeah, I try and put most of my work out on YouTube. It's just, I think, an easier format for people to digest. And yeah, I hope to bring more work forward soon.

speaker-0: Cool, man. Well, I will be watching the skies of your YouTube channel. Thank you so much for sharing your time with me today from the other side of the planet. And I wish you well in your ongoing investigations.

speaker-1: Thanks mate, love what you do too, go man. Yeah, it's great to connect. So yeah, we'll stay in touch and we'll see where this goes. might see you soon, hopefully.

speaker-0: And that's the show. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying it, please like and subscribe and share this with people who you think might like it. You could also directly support us at patreon.com slash WTF for a dollar a month. do some chatting in there and you can propose questions for future episodes. You could also check out spacefair.etsy.com. That's our company's main merch site where you could support us commercially and pick up some cool gear. Thank you again for listening. Hope you have a lovely day.