speaker-0: It's our life. Four titles, one truth. I'm Tommy.

speaker-1: and I'm Lance. Today we're talking about black excellence, black exhaustion, and what we may be passing down without realizing.

speaker-0: Alright, let's get into it. When did you realize being good wasn't enough? You had to be exceptional and who were you watching when you learned that?

speaker-1: Whoo, that probably it really probably started in high school. High school. Where it really started paying attention to it. OK. You know, big time. And that probably was because of ⁓ the shift of going to school, because I was going to school with all that was really predominantly black.

speaker-0: in elementary.

speaker-1: in elementary, elementary and junior high. And then ninth grade, whenever I went to high school, that's when it flip flop to where it was like, oh shoot, we really, mean, you know, really start realizing, yeah, I am the minority, you know. I knew it still, but just, you know, where you were put in the situation, you know, put in the environment. yeah, so then, I mean, then just seeing my father, you know, working his day to day and then how he act, you know, transitions between, you know, being home in the neighborhood or around family to being at work and being in that professional environment and then just having ⁓ conversations with him about different things and then just that... ⁓ being competitive and just like, you know, I'm trying to be number one, you know, I'm trying to do the best. So that being an athlete, know, being a student athlete, student, black student, then an athlete, black athlete, want to try to break some of the stereotypes that folks try to put in their head sometimes where it's like, oh, they just good at sports. I mean, just let me look at it. Cause I came in, was, wasn't,

speaker-0: And you were feeling that in high school?

speaker-1: I I had potential to be a good student. Where I probably would have been in the, what they call them, the AP classes and stuff, would have been in the junior high school public, junior high school or whatever. So those kids come in and then they're the peacock running around. it's like, I know that shit too. So, ⁓ so it was just one of those things where I felt like I had to prove myself on that piece where it's like the Catholic school gave me a good ⁓ gave me a really good education, you know gave me a good base to jump off from and stuff. it's just being you know, cuz I had an older brother had a younger sister. So it was like trying to you know, learn from my brother's example and push myself a little bit, you know, trying to show my sister that hey, it's okay, you know, ⁓ my cousin had younger cousins and stuff like hey we can just trying to keep my name because it's just you know you have so much pride in your in your name so it's like I gotta keep my name you know keep my name

speaker-0: and represent. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Wow. It's hard. ⁓ Because I was like the opposite, you know, growing up in a white school church, but being in a black neighborhood, I never I'm trying to think I know I never really felt at that time. I never really felt that I was that I had to elevate. We're talking elementary. But one thing I did notice early, and it never really dawned on me until I read this question just the way my dad to carry himself and the way he did his everyday thing. So like when he was around the house, he'd be in a torn t-shirt sitting on the in this chair and his allowed chair, you know, shorts, ⁓ holes in the socks, you know, all that stuff. But you don't really didn't really dawn on me about that because it's his house, you know, ⁓ I mean now of course it dawns on me, but, anytime he had to go somewhere, outside, there was a complete change. It was freshly showered. It was better clothes and just the way he just carried himself was just completely different. And I never really, I noticed it as a kid, but it never really dawned on me what was actually happening, you know. And then later I started to realize because I'm was the same way when I'm at home. I don't care. You know what I'm got, yeah, glasses. I got my glasses on. got

speaker-1: He ain't lying.

speaker-0: ⁓ You know, we got these shirts, but I got the first edition. The ones that don't have the best material or don't have ⁓ the sizing right, whatever. But when I'm at home, I'm at home, not chilling. you mess around and say, you mess around, say somebody coming over or you mess around. And even if I go to a Home Depot, you know, I still tighten myself up. Not like I put on church clothes or anything. Yeah, yeah, you know and so just thinking about that it just led me to start thinking like why am I doing that and you know I'm like the Jones name because it's something that you know my dad used to always say you know Jones's aren't just anybody you know ⁓ and and the pride that

speaker-1: But you're not looking like...

speaker-0: everybody has with our name. I'm talking cousins, uncles, dad. So that was one thing. And then second thing was, you know, the little pride that I took from that. it became like pride in myself wanting to put my best foot forward when I'm out there. Right. And then, you know, now you married, you, don't want people to say, I saw your raggedy. Oh, look at your husband somewhere. You don't ever want that. know, so yeah. Yeah, so I mean bad enough I get that anyway But you know, so it's it's always been about representation, right? Yeah, but then it got to be ⁓ more than that because when it's it's it's You don't realize it's more than that. You know, you think it's I just thought it was just what my dad was doing but the more you start to

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: grow up and the more you start to open your mind and start to really see what's going on it's like that's something that's been stressed to us for

speaker-1: I mean, I think some of it has just been like embedded in us without us really even without our knowledge. I mean, I think it's just one of those things where you just see, I mean, you see it unconsciously. I mean, you just see it and you know, okay, this is what I have to do, which is unfortunate because it's like, this is the way that I feel like we make folks feel comfortable around. us in.

speaker-0: because we, yes.

speaker-1: in their, we'll call it their, in environments that we feel like aren't ours. Instead of just, right, well, okay. So, ⁓ it's how we present ourselves, ⁓ pride or protection. And how do you know the difference?

speaker-0: Yes. Yes. Instead of just being who we. Yes. It's both. because of what we were starting to talk about because I know for fact, well for my fact, ain't gonna sit there and do that. know a fact to me is that growing up I wouldn't have had the same opportunities as I'm adulting, right, growing up as a young man if I wasn't aware of my presentation because something I teach soldiers, something I teach my children and something I learned because my dad showed me without telling me is that you never get a second chance to make a first impression. You know what saying? so going out was... ⁓ when i would go out and how i'd present myself of course it was pride like i said and family name and as a black person and all that stuff that pride that you feel ⁓ because you feel like you're the man you know what saying ⁓ whatever level it is depends on your confidence right but i also know that there are rooms that i would have never gotten into if i hadn't adjusted

speaker-1: presented in a way. Yeah, mean, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's.

speaker-0: And then the military, call it being professional and that is good and fine. Right. But the reality of it is it's white people's terms, right? On their terms, right? It's their term for being on their terms because if I'm loud, ⁓ they don't see that as professional, right? But if I'm sitting here and me and you laughing and talking professional, that'd be you being you. You represent you and all that stuff. And so one thing that I did learn that after watching my dad and growing up and getting older, it was protection because it was,

speaker-1: I mean they, they, yeah.

speaker-0: that fear that I developed of missing an opportunity, you know what saying? And that's why it was so important to me that when people saw me in uniform, it was so important to me that they saw a professional, they saw a joker that they could depend on. Absolutely. And that's how it's all related to that for me.

speaker-1: Yeah, for me, mean, to me, it's the ⁓ how we present ourselves, it's the situation. The situation and then who... ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah, who's the audience?

speaker-1: Yeah, who's audience, who I'm with, who I'm around because I'm gonna present myself one way when I'm in a setting of, you know, work setting or whatever and whoever I'm the patient is just to make to make sure that they're comfortable ⁓ and don't have any doubts about whatever, you know, the care or what the information, whatever I'm giving them to and I understand that. I understand that just because of ⁓ understand a lot better now being the ⁓ age that we are just because of how folks ⁓ grew up, know, understanding that people grew up in different places, people had different views and people, mean, and the rhetoric and all the stuff that's in on the TV. Yeah, and the stereotypes that are getting thrown out there. ⁓ People are impressionable. Absolutely. You know, so. ⁓

speaker-0: you before they meet you.

speaker-1: Right. So just so yeah. So absolutely have to have to to present, you you walk in that that type that a type you know, I'm dealing with that. But yeah, I mean, it's the I mean, you hit it with the pride and you just I mean, it's just it's one of those things where it's just a you want to ⁓ uplift. You want to. ⁓

speaker-0: there.

speaker-1: make those qualities and all those things shine, know?

speaker-0: That's so that leads me to you. So I'm just assuming that my dad's dad, my grandfather would tell my dad, boy, fix yourself up. You know what saying? So I'm imagining that, right? Then I try to put myself in my grandfather's space of why he's doing that. You know what saying? And, and my belief is that he's doing that to try to get my dad through and beyond that stereotype of black people are lazy, black people don't know how to take care of black people aren't smart enough.

speaker-1: I mean people have been looking at you like you're an animal. Yeah, you don't know how to clean you stink you Ugly you I mean all of those things that they All of those stereotypes and things like that. So they were like, nope So when we go out, we're gonna be dressed in our Sunday best when we go to the grocery store We're gonna you know, we're gonna present and look this way to say

speaker-0: When we go to church. You know, I'm just how super dressed up we are, you know, because we it's that but then I go to my father and my father always telling me boy, what's your face? Boy, picture. Where are going? No, not like that. You're going, you know,

speaker-1: And that was passed on us.

speaker-0: Absolutely. But what's passed on from my grandfather to my dad, the pressure is different than when my dad passed it on to me and the pressure is different than when I passed it on to my son. And it's because we, well, just like I told you before,

speaker-1: You think it's more or less? More or less. You think it's less?

speaker-0: I think it's we're definitely the the traits that we picked up from our father and our grandparents are wonderful traits, but they come with weight

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. And that's what I wanted to get at is that I feel like us, because we have to try to make, well I feel, I don't know if my son feels that way now, but I feel like we have to maintain that if not exceed it.

speaker-0: desk there. We do. And that's what I'm saying. The weights different because my dad did it because he was standing on that Jones thing. My dad did it because he remembers how poorly black people were treated black men specifically. And my dad did it. ⁓ And once again, it was a teaching point for me, but it, it wasn't like he sat there. I mean, he said things, you know what saying? But it was one of those things that, ⁓ He enforced without sitting me down and giving me a PowerPoint presentation. And so, grandfather, my grandmother and their family, there was 12 of them in that house. Small house.

speaker-1: I mean.

speaker-0: amount of wealth they had was they were okay with life, happy with life, but it wasn't the freedom that in a perfect world anybody would want, right? This is the struggle. The struggle of being in Troy, Alabama. The struggle of being, ⁓ raising kids in the 30s, 40s, 50s. The struggle of ⁓ still trying to find your place. The struggle of realizing that you, from where they're from, getting the best job for for them is not likely to happen. You know what I'm saying? And then it goes to my father to where all that weight came from my grandfather not... because of I want you to drown. It was all this weights put on my father because he wants him to be successful. My grandfather wants him to be successful. My grandfather wants him to be better at life than he was. You know what I'm saying? And then, you know, and I have to throw my uncle Jerry in there because he was the father figure. And then it comes to us to where my living condition completely different than my father's there was only four of us in a house a two-story house on a corner, you know I'm saying and My dad made ⁓ good money But he was still busting his butt, you know, but he was in a situation where he got onto a steel plant and you know, rose up through the steel plant to be able to make decent money by the time I was like in high school, you know, right around there. And so he had a great job with benefits and all that stuff. And so it's completely different than what he grew up in. And that was my grandfather's hope. You know what saying? And so the weight that ⁓ my dad had from my grandfather to him it was different because his desire to succeed in life was desperation you know I'm saying and and and was like working your fingers to the bone and and and Making his way and now having a family to where they ain't broke right and so now passed on to me I'm in a situation where my desperation to be successful was less about my my where I came from and less about the super hardships I had growing up, but more about pride, you know what saying? Absolutely. And it changed over into adulthood because I started to see what my dad was doing was being an example. And then the weight that was sorta off of me that made me a little lazy sometimes, that made me not care as much sometimes.

speaker-1: Build a

speaker-0: But the weight come came back because I started to realize People are looking at me not white people not older people but young men are looking at me now in a situation where I'm in and How am I leaving them? You're saying so so just the weight change, but it came back I don't know if it'll come back for our kids. You know saying so and what I mean by that is the

speaker-1: All

speaker-0: The weight of being black.

speaker-1: Well, I tell you, think the, again, the current situation that we got going on in our country now, I think a lot more, a lot more aware, a lot of kids are lot more aware of than they were before, they are really seeing that, okay, yeah, we ain't past this, we ain't, you know, we're not the same like they're trying to present and say they are, because I can tell you both of mine are.

speaker-0: than they were.

speaker-1: especially the boy, which I'm glad he is aware. He's very aware of what's going on. So for me, I mean, for me now, for him is like, cause I feel like now I now I got to try to protect him a little bit. Cause I don't want him to just, cause he hasn't had to deal with the, you know, the, super craziness stuff where you can be like, okay, I don't need to call it date. And I don't want him popping off on somebody or saying something. And then again,

speaker-0: over it.

speaker-1: everybody got a weapon. I don't need him getting shot over some dumb crap.

speaker-0: Yeah. But that's, yeah. So that's, that's where that took me. Cause it's just like, I know the weight that I felt in the military as I was becoming an adult was not on me because of the military, because racism is a thing, right? Racism is something that every black person. There I go speaking. I believe that every morning, as soon as you wake up and you're on your way out the house. Racism is in your mind.

speaker-1: I mean, I can tell you for us, it's always, I feel like we are always on guard. Which is, get tired. Yeah. I mean, you get tired. And it's like, want, know, and it's like, doesn't matter how much, how successful, how much... talking military turns, how much rank I got, you know, what I always felt on guard. Yeah, I always felt like I had to make sure that I was presenting in a certain way so that I wasn't embarrassing folks that came before me, folks that were underneath me and myself, my

speaker-0: Yeah And then specifically black people who see you. Right. You know, you walk into like we used to go for lunch and you know what I'm saying? And we while we're in uniform, go for lunch somewhere and and you walking in there and the whole point is that how are you being received? You're sitting there like and that's part of like I said, why I try to keep myself tight and my uniform tight and all that stuff, because I always wanted to be seen as and It hurts to say, but the right example. You know what saying? then, yeah, yep. So are we teaching our children, and I wanna highlight sons, excellence from confidence or from fear of missed opportunity?

speaker-1: Well, it's the textbook. both. mean, yeah, they walk in the same footsteps, think, for us. I mean, because ⁓ we are very ⁓ confident on things that we try to sit them down and tell them and teach them. We are very confident about it. A lot of times because we either knew somebody that you know, that happened to or they did it or the path that they took. Yeah, because we know. Or in the same sentence, we didn't do something so that fear of, look, you can do, I missed this or I jacked this up. So this is what you don't do in order to be successful at whatever. But we got to make sure that it is, which,

speaker-0: experience.

speaker-1: I had to really dial myself back and learn is to let them choose what their path was gonna be. And that's another thing where it's a, man, should I have had more of a hand directing some of that. But it's like they have to learn some of this stuff. We can push them. push them a little more to try to help direct them, but they have to do it because we can't do it for them.

speaker-0: You can't do some I've learned is that the soldiers as well as with kids you can't put intensity in somebody unless they find it. And that's something that I rely you can't pass along because you'd see so many soldiers with so much potential but just not have the energy or the. Yeah. The desire to want to excel. ⁓ my God.

speaker-1: Yeah. And that's hard. I mean, that's, wow.

speaker-0: And then it's the same way with your kids. That's worse because it's worse because I know for a fact that if I wasn't hyper, if I wasn't super aggressive, if I wasn't bold and loud, I know for a fact my career would have been stalled somewhere. You know what saying? And so...

speaker-1: And it's hard.

speaker-0: and that hunger to succeed and show people that you belong there and to show people that you're not somebody to be messed with. then on top of that, you're doing it for yourself, of course, but you also realize that you're doing it for your family. then you also mature and realize that you're doing it for your race. And even if you don't accept that, it's still there because the Impression because you know, yeah as a grown man that the impression you walk out of a room with Affects the next person that's well But you're aware of them, but the person walking in that room may not be aware of it because Most of the time they aren't because if they were then they would look at you different, you know I'm saying they look at you more as

speaker-1: mean, it's gonna help somebody else.

speaker-0: more gracefully, more elderly, know, as an elder, not as an old man, but they would look at you as a pathfinder, you know what I'm saying? A trailblazer. And I'm not putting that on today's people. I'm saying the same thing for when I was young. The people, when I look back over my career, there were people that at the time, I was like, you know, come on, man, you know. Right you go, you know say you know you you stuck in your own way whatever but dim old saw first classes back then them jokers They weren't as old as I thought they were you know at the time but at the same time Yeah, they would open their mouth and they would say stuff hoping that you catch it because they know they may not have another opportunity with you or they don't even know if you're gonna listen to it, know, I'm saying so

speaker-1: Anyway, we're off. but you gotta put it out there too.

speaker-0: 100 % man. then it's the thing is like, so thinking about this and going down that path I have, it's just like, so when I was raising my son from kid up and when I was giving him information and when I had all these super expectations for him, what lens was I looking in? You know what saying? Was I looking in the, we got to this for black people, we got to do this for, you know what saying? Or am I looking the lens solely of a father who wants the best for their son.

speaker-1: Well, think, again, say we're not going to speak for everything. When you're dealing with your kids, you're looking at what's going to be the best for them. and that's what I'm saying. Well, yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying because it is. But the first and foremost is I'm looking at what's going to be the best for them. And then with the caveat of they're black, you know, male, female. Yeah. And these are some of the obstacles that you might run. I mean, that's what I mean. That's how I was like. This is some of the things that might come up because of that. Yeah. But you are more than capable of.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-1: Getting past that and you know setting the example and getting more because the thing is it's like you look we were ⁓ on vacation this past ⁓ week and and this is a ⁓ perfect example of this, know was you know, me and I drug and ⁓ few more of the folks in our group today. Yeah, black friends in the group. And we were really the only black people in this, know, on this trip and in this area, you know. We saw like, when we saw like another group, it was like, hey, what's up? But it's like, I mean, we run into that all the time where it's like, why are we the only ones, you know. But then it's like, but we gotta be to show, you know, to show we can. be here too and we can do this too. We can appreciate drinking wine and I mean so I mean those are things that we understand and been to different places and can talk about why the rose bushes are at the front of ⁓ the grape vine rose. We know that stuff. So it's just like it's one of those things where it's just like God. Again, thing that's exhausting, know? It's like, dog. ⁓

speaker-0: because I'm gonna tell you another level that is so we were on vacation at a different spot and uh he was in Switzerland but uh but the the spot we were in is and the group we were with it was me and Nikki out of I to say

speaker-1: You

speaker-0: 20 some, you know, and it's in me now, but I'm still wearing that weight. You know, like you're saying, I'm still, I'm almost as. concerned and sometimes it can be overwhelming but I'm almost as concerned about being in the moment and trying to enjoy this the the vacation or whatever but I'm also sitting there saying I'm not one of one you know I'm saying I'm like I'm I'm still thinking that way

speaker-1: Because you know that it's others that would appreciate, could be there with you. it's just like, but I mean, and it's, and that's the thing is like, we know that it's other folks that only want to Yeah, we're not, but it always seems like, man, why is it just?

speaker-0: We're not all. But I feel like that if I don't, if I don't, and it's not, don't, fortunately it's my personality. because if it wasn't, then I'd probably be asleep every time I was out of the spotlight. You know what saying? Instead of just as a, you know, hyper like sitting here right now, could be, yeah. So I don't want my son to ever have to feel this way or my daughter to ever have to feel this way. And like, there was a time when we could say that, ⁓ black kids, they don't get hung no more.

speaker-1: in a

speaker-0: It'll still pop up somewhere that a black kid was so you can't sit there and take away all that all that concern you can't sit there and tell your kid I can't tell my son that We're at a point now where your blackness is just something internal You know I'm saying and it'll ooze out of you. I can't tell them that because I can't just tell them that I have to tell them don't speed when you're by yourself because the cops could pull you over. When the cops pull you over, roll down your freaking windows, all of them, and when the cop starts walking up towards you, make sure your hands are above the window so that, yeah, so that jokers can make sure that you're not gonna be a threat. I still had to tell my son that, you know what saying?

speaker-1: Yep. I mean, we still told ours all of that stuff. the thing is that it's it's again, they haven't experienced it or grown up. And that's what we have. Because you don't you feel like you're not doing right by them if you don't say because you know that it's folks out there that are in our that are in our generation are were raised by somebody that have that mindset that.

speaker-0: We put that weight on

speaker-1: we are less, you know, and this is how you treat them.

speaker-0: Yeah, so we sit here telling our kids to be the best they can be trying to give them our fire, which it's impossible to do.

speaker-1: I mean, it's one of those things that, yeah, but it's like you can't put you on them. You know, I can't.

speaker-0: you hope and wish And something my friend told me the other day is like the hardest thing, Jermaine, he was like the thing that he had to realize and the thing that we all have to realize some days at some point is my understanding of a situation of a moment. doesn't mean that that's the way you're going to do it. Yeah, that doesn't mean so I can't, I can't put my values and my expectations on anybody and expect success and expect.

speaker-1: Hmm.

speaker-0: happiness for them because they're not me.

speaker-1: You know what? And then I came to that realization that I gave my kids the baby. You know, I tried to give them all of the good basics and stuff and I try to give them a good example, but they're going to be the adults that they're going to be. You know, and all I can hope is that they, they, you know, situations arise and they, whatever decision that they make and they go, dad, you know, you, my dad said this or. they come back and say, Dad, you were right. I said, such and such, that's how I go, okay, cool. You know, and that's happened to me, you know, a couple of times with my kids and I've been like, okay, cool. All right. I'm glad I can help out.

speaker-0: I'm with you. at the roof. Let's get it.

speaker-1: It's be like, hey, hey, remember when I told you?

speaker-0: Yeah, they did get it. I'm with you. but it's ⁓ the fear is still there. But is that fear from our experiences and our life or is it fear of because of and it's but it's unique times right now.

speaker-1: think it's, mean, I, yeah, but I mean, but I say a lot of it is fear from us just because we don't, yeah, we don't want that to be our kids' reality or whatever. You know, we don't want them to have to deal with that because we don't feel like they should if we've already done it. Yeah, we already done it and experienced it. We don't want it, them to, we don't feel like they should even have to deal with that crap.

speaker-0: what we've been through. If we walk the path, we feel like they should be able to see that path and walk the way that was successful. And if you see us turn left, then you stop and consider going straight or turning right.

speaker-1: ⁓ It's tax season now. So it's like, it's that thing where it's like, you want the tax to have to be, you know, to be a little less on each and that's probably how our parents and grandparents felt it's like, you still gonna have to deal with this, but hopefully it should be less, a lot less than what I had to.

speaker-0: Especially by me making you aware of.

speaker-1: Check this out. Have you ever felt pressure to present yourself a certain way so you wouldn't be seen as too black while also not wanting to look like you were trying to be less black?

speaker-0: Yes, I've had to ⁓ monitor and control my blackness because I equate it to effective communication. You always want to make sure that your message is getting across.

speaker-1: Right. That's spot on right there. I mean, because a lot of it is dealing with communication.

speaker-0: And so if you sitting down at a table and it's mixed races, then the way you talk has to be, you know, I kept saying before is the army teaches you to bring everything to the army lingo, to the army way of doing things, because the closer you can get everybody to that streamline way of communicating, understanding that acronym, the initials, understanding the rules and regulations and understanding the formalities and expectations and understanding the UCMJ, the court marshal, understanding that it's the consequences of failing to do so. The closer you can get everybody to that, the more effectively your team can communicate, your whatever can communicate.

speaker-1: Well, everybody understands what the what the mission is, what the.

speaker-0: understands what you're trying to get So that's that's where it is. So like when I wake up in the morning, ⁓ yeah, I'm listening to rmb or hip hop, you know, and I'm moving, ⁓ maybe singing a rapper or whatever off key. It don't matter because that's what I do. But, but when I getting closer to the office, you know, I'm turning the music down because, know, saying I'm too busy understanding the rules and regulations of sound on base. You don't mean. So at one point it was 25 meters at the MP can hear you 25 meters away. get a dag on ticket. So close. get the base term, my music down, right? And then I'd get in to my office and the less the office is, the more I'm still who I am. Right. But I I've changed, of course, because I've crossed that threshold and I'm in the office now. And so, ⁓ and then when I'm sitting down in a meeting, I'm speaking clear and concise, you I'm trying not to over talk or under talk, but trying to get the message out and get what I need for my subordinates, you know, as well as for my leaders and, all that. But when I go to lunch with, with some friends of mine, no matter what race they are, I'm more relaxed, you know, but I'm still in uniform, still trying to put that out there. But you catch me in civilian clothes on the weekend with my, with. friends or black friends specifically people would be surprised about you know how relaxed I am be surprised maybe how I talk you know it it's it's it's one things I had to understand and There is a thing called blackness, you know, and we joke about it being a black card, right? But there is an expectation from other black people for them to see certain characteristics in you, certain traits. And if you lose those characteristics or traits, then they start to be like, is this joker? Have they given up their blackness to be with you know, I'm saying this there's all kinds of and once again I'm talking about this added weight that goes there and then you have to deal with I've mentioned it before with you got these younger soldiers of black men specifically walking around black women being abused and whatever by other leaders and so you have to I I accepted that weight and I had to make sure that my black subordinate soldiers, peers and seniors knew that I saw them as peers instead of ⁓ beings or things and items. And you know, had to, I took the weight to... present myself in a way that was professional and locked in so that the younger black soldiers can see that this joker is the part, but you could see that this blackness is glowing on this joker, you know what I'm But the way he talks, know, and the way he gets his point across and the way he controls the room and controls the unit, you know, I'm thinking about all that stuff and trying to be a good role model and example. for the younger generation, know, and so all of that weight means that I can't get in trouble. I can't get demoted. I can't get Article 15, UCN, the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I don't know why I didn't say it earlier, but I don't I can't I can't put a dag on. ⁓ Mark on this presentation, because if I do. then everything that I've tried to do now is compromise.

speaker-1: You wouldn't do that anyway. mean that's one of the things you wouldn't want to do anyway just because yeah that's breaking the rules or you know however you want to look at that that piece of it but just the way that you were just the way yeah yeah I would say just the way that you present yourself yeah and what you know whatever the audience because this is what you call it

speaker-0: Yeah, take away from.

speaker-1: I think how I was sometimes was, depending on who my audience was, was how I felt I had to project to make folks comfortable, where they were open to listen and really truly understand and not just sit there and look at me like this black guy saying, or what is he talking about, does he really know? Because of communication. Like we were in a, you know, sitting in a room where there's a bunch of black people, it's like, you're gonna understand it this way, you know, and understand why you have to, I I will, would tell especially younger folks, like, look, this is what you're have to do. You can't come from the hood, you know, they're not gonna know what you're saying. You're gonna intimidate them. They're gonna be ⁓ scared of you. They're not gonna, you know, not gonna wanna ⁓ be around you in that way. So, I mean, I would speak to them like I was. speaking to you. You know, ⁓ just so that they understand and know because they would see me how I spoke to them in the group and say okay this is how you what you said or I mean first thing that you said about communicating and I mean and I think that that's a huge that's a ⁓ huge piece of this is if you can't effectively communicate where everybody understands not just one group, then you're not gonna be successful. You're not gonna be able to get your point across.

speaker-0: And this goes then also take it back to where we were talking about to where it comes to like the younger generation. We're soldiers, our children and other ones we see is just like you want them to get it earlier than you got it so that it's less of a problem. The fact that they're fighting you back, it frustrates us, but because we forget that we were fighting back too. You know, maturity is not something you have at 18 locked in on what you will do the rest of your life and forever in the way you know it's.

speaker-1: It's those different life experiences, but similar. know, cause it's like I didn't have the same, I don't think I had the same, I know I didn't have the same experiences as my father ⁓ growing up, but I know I had similar. you know some of the stuff probably that uh he had to deal with but he was better off yeah I was better I know growing up I was better off than what he was growing up just because of you know that that financial piece of it and then where he sent us to school and you know and things like that

speaker-0: of it. That's enough.

speaker-1: So yeah, I but the same thing with our kids is that, you know, in the military, a lot of times we're looking at, we don't necessarily live where we want to live. We live where the school district is for the kids. So you first thing you do is when you're talking to the realtor, whatever it's like, where's the school district? Yeah. So then it's like, okay, this is where I want to start looking at.

speaker-0: Then you get frustrated they don't act like you.

speaker-1: Yes, so that's the other thing is like you did that to yourself, know, so it's like you so it's like and which is it's a good thing, you know, and I've learned that it's you don't need to be the dog that I was but you want them to have some of that dog, know

speaker-0: because you can protect them way better than our parents could and their parents could. But my biggest thing is, I've always felt this way and I think it's because of my dad and I appreciate him for it, is the fact that that second chance, you never know when that first opportunity could change your life. You know what saying? And so the impression that...

speaker-1: Yep.

speaker-0: people take away from you is what opens the door not just for you and that's why i was saying about this trip ⁓ went on is that I, as an adult, a grown black man who's experienced life, my takeaway from that is I hope the people that I was around have a stronger feeling about letting black people closer to them. That's something

speaker-1: Not being afraid.

speaker-0: Yeah, and that's a weight that I take on and I carry because I accepted the role of who I am and what I think my legacy is and what I think my role is.

speaker-1: in this world. I think we do a really good job at ⁓ not shutting out folks, not shutting out white folks, know, giving folks a chance.

speaker-0: It's amazing.

speaker-1: I mean, I don't think that we ever, I'm just speaking for me and you, because I've been around you, been out with you, vacated, to other countries and stuff. So I think we will sit down and talk and speak and able to relate to, know, find something that is like, yeah, my kid does that same thing. Because I had that where it was like, I was talking to somebody and I was like, yeah, my son does that.

speaker-0: event.

speaker-1: You know, and I was like, yep, my son. Well, one of our friends, even here, one of our friends, son, same thing. He's He's white. Yeah. Matt, Miles, one of Miles's friends. fathers we sit down and talk about stuff and it's like yep I mean he could have been he could have been talking about Miles or I could have been talking about his you know his son you know so it's like so I mean we have more we're similar yeah more in common more similarities than what folks will allow to get in so I mean I think we do a great job ⁓ you know, being open and trying to, trying to break that piece of it because when it's like that, it's not as exhausting as what you expect. Cause it's like, you don't, I hate being on guard or what can I say, what don't I want to say? I don't want to offend somebody, which I don't, you know, which is like, I don't think it's offensive, but they might think it's offensive. But if I was talking to.

speaker-0: having to think for everybody. Yeah, I'm the same way. And it's just so let me ask you a question. Me and you growing up was different, was a lot alike, except my father passed away a long time. So 17 years. Right. So you had your father in your life 17 more years than me. And so I want to attack this from officer enlisted. as well as our situation. When I joined the military, it was random and it was, I was on my own. had nobody. My uncle was a Marine, but he had been out of Marines for a while. And he gave me some of the greatest advice right before I went to basic training. So Uncle Greg was very valuable in me getting my head ready for what I was going into. Even though it was like a 20 year difference, right? But when I joined and left, it was just I left my mother, my father, my sister, you know, and of course cousins, all that stuff. But the core of my family I left was those four. I joined the army in 91 and then during that time I'm evolving and becoming, you know, who I am. I was a, I had made the song first class list. the year before my dad passed and was waiting for my number to get called. So I'd gone all the way up to a Staff Song Promotable with my father. I, you know, looking back, I don't know if I didn't take advantage of it enough or if I even, I don't know if the way my father and I, our relationship was up.

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: we just didn't have a whole lot of conversation you know i'm saying it was did we talk to him it's obvious ⁓ do i have any ⁓ negative feelings but absolutely not you know because i know he was present and i know he did the best he could do so there's no anything underneath what i'm trying to say right now undertones military conversations stuff like that i was always on my own because i'd the pcs you leave friends you know saying and so ⁓ and cell phones were super thing early on so when he passed that was the one outlet i had and then from song first class to star majors is me And not like even then I had a couple friends that were sort of like mentorish friends ish. But it's not like, no. And it's also not like I'm going to divulge everything to him. You know what I mean? It's not like I'm not going to call my partner of mine up black man. You know, know, you know what saying? didn't have that and I learned watching, learned adjusting myself, and then I learned off the foundation that they gave me. And so, to where your example was, and that I went and enlisted and joined the military, your example was... you joined or you left there, you left home and went to school and then you found a tribe. You know what saying? And then that tribe ended up joining an army and most of them ended up joining the army, staying in the army and y'all stayed connected. right. And then at the same time, you had your father right there with you. do you see some possible advantages that you may have had just from your opinion and something we could talk about? So that we could find out if there really was some advantages disadvantages ⁓

speaker-1: having that try. Yeah, my father was absolutely, because I can tell you, because my father died in 2021. And those last, my last three years of ⁓ being in military were hard, because I would, whenever I was happy, different things would come up, I could call my father and be like, hey daddy, this is what's going on. And he would tell me a story about something and it'd be like, okay, that makes sense, okay, I understand. I could get that, that was the one source of knowledge, criticism, constructive criticism, whatever you wanna call it, that I could take, listen to, and it made sense, stuck, wasn't trying, I wasn't fighting it, I wasn't fighting that. I know it was coming.

speaker-0: So we went to him. There was no fighting. You know, I'm listening.

speaker-1: Yeah, I helped, you know. I I felt like it was that, it was the genuine, sincere help. Something I didn't get offended, I didn't feel butthurt. They had none of that because it was that, it was that situation. Yeah. I mean, cause it just, just, and I mean, and I, and with our, with our friends that we had, that was just, ⁓ that was instrumental and just.

speaker-0: Ultimate mentor.

speaker-1: being able to raise our family the way that we were able to being dual military, then having some of the other friends that were also, so we all knew each, so we were there to help each other. So then we were also all black, so we're going through different but similar situations. I mean, so it was just like, I mean, it was a great network just to be able to call, help out, you know, so I mean, it just made that piece of. being in the military ⁓ where we're a minority and then you're, we're all, you know, doing well so we're all progressing and as you go up more in rank then you start seeing less and less ⁓ of yourself around. I mean, was just, was knowing that somebody else was going through that same situation that... that we were going through, that I was going through. I mean, that piece made it ⁓ a lot easier, the leaders, well, just the life and the leadership piece is what I was, ⁓ it's a lot of stuff that I mean, and a lot of stuff that my father would tell me I knew already, but it's like, you just needed that. Yeah, you need that that reassurance type of piece. So, ⁓ and he didn't feel crazy whenever somebody that, you know, you're trying to explain. They don't understand. It's like, yeah. it's like, exactly. So, mean, and that's the way that I felt my last few, you know, my last, ⁓ three years without him being there without me being able to talk to him was I knew I'm not crazy. You know, I know I'm not crazy. I know this shit is right. I know what I'm saying is.

speaker-0: Well enough to give you a response

speaker-1: what it should be you know and these jokers are not so it just got super I mean it just it just made the job super frustrating and it's hard to ⁓ especially a job that you love because I love doing my job and it was just like it got to the point where it's like my god I can't anymore so but yeah I so that was a I would say that's yes it was an advantage I think to have ⁓

speaker-0: get there.

speaker-1: to go in to start off with that group. I could imagine you felt like, I'm feeling like I ain't got nobody. here with me. I'm feeling alone right now. You know, so I understand why you went as hard as you did and you, you made sure all of your shit was on point and you used the, you know, your, your physical advantages that you had and you said, this is what I know that I have. And this is what I'm going to, yeah, I'm going to shine on this right now. And then once you knew you had that on lock, then you started doing the,

speaker-0: makes me.

speaker-1: going through the manuals and getting all of that, know, getting right on that piece where we had, I mean, we were in a situation where it was like, hey man, you ever had to, you know, cause that's what I would be like, hey, Kelsey, you, you the, the, was she, the IG, yeah. Tell me about the situation right here. What's, what's, what's my op, you know, I was able to do that with, with folks, or, you know, or when folks are in command and stuff like that. And it's like, Command is command. You know, gotta know the basics stuff and being able to vent to somebody else. Where it be like, yeah, I understand what you're talking about.

speaker-0: Yeah, because I know I don't know if I had You know if my father lived longer, you know, and if Because nobody I went to basic with As far as I was able to find in my career Nobody I went to basic with lasted more than like four years in military. So I had no battle buddies, know, long term. Yeah. And then by the time I started getting into that, I didn't need, you know, I'd never looked for that. never, cause I always felt I was leaving. And so, you know, dudes are funny. You know what saying? You, you, you could vibe with a dude and be cool. But if that dude is more loyal or has a more friendly with somebody else, Your stuff is all in that stuff now, you know say it's just the same. Hey guys the girls guys do the same thing because the friendship and all that stuff and so the reason I asked that question because when I was Thinking about this. I was just like that's where my desperation came from. You know saying and and your I can see how yours is Is is I? See your fire is the exact same I see your ⁓ Your want to be as good as you possibly can be is the same but I also see your ⁓ Props, so just hold up, but I I see the way you handle stuff now. It's as if I I can see the results of how you you know what saying, or how you were raised and how you were able to make, because I know that if I had more time with my dad, I know that this temper I have and I know that this ⁓ competitive thing that I have and this fire, emotion that I have, that's... Everything I just said forget the emotion that I have in me I'd understand better and I would have come across differently. I don't know how it would have affected who I am or whatever. I don't know if it would have. made me become a war officer one day or go to OCS one day or even take it up the chain further with the with the jobs that I wasn't able to achieve but I just I just know that my takeaway from that is I want to I want to be the teammate for my children that life took away with my dad because my dad passed away in 2004. I talking about this and talking about the weight of being a black man in the United States, I don't think there's enough that we could say that can make. any other race understand the plight that we have. You know, I'm coming out the womb, you know what saying? Because the moment we're born and if you have a black father near you, that black father now is scared to death that the world's gonna chew you up for being the color you are. This is before your personality's developed.

speaker-1: And that's funny. mean, I it's funny, but it's like it's one of those things where it's like I never felt like a woe is me. No, you know, being black, it was always like, OK, what do I need to do? You it always you always wanting to go to the next rung on the ladder. So it's like, OK, what do need to do? But you.

speaker-0: Also constantly being told of the pitfalls Yes, and you're also you're constantly being made aware of the pitfall. So woe is me is not You don't have time for that, you know and that's that's what I'm trying to get across is the fact that I had to succeed because I knew that if I didn't succeed my place on this earth was not going to it was not going to just Automatically wake up one day and I'd be

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: Okay, yeah, I knew that was not a possibility and even though it wasn't the path that I Thought even though it wasn't the plan that my parents had the one thing I knew was I am NOT gonna be a failure. Well, you know I'm saying

speaker-1: And that's the same way, same situation where it was like we were getting the stuff. But then it's like, I ain't trying to lose this either. So it's like, cause you know that somebody can take it away from you or might be trying to take it. So was like, I'm not gonna lose this and I'm not gonna give them a reason to be able to accomplish that mission that they might be trying to do so.

speaker-0: I didn't have my first drink of alcohol till I was like 27, 27, 28, 26, 27. I had never consistently thought about drinking until I was 45, know, consistently drinking, meaning not that I'm an alcoholic, but meaning like if I go out somewhere and get a cocktail. yeah, yeah. I can tell you now I've only been drunk in my life maybe twice, maybe three times. I'm talking about drunk. tipsy and number look for drug I'm sure you do but I'm gonna tell you and I'm gonna tell you the reason

speaker-1: story. Unfortunately,

speaker-0: I wasn't is because I felt I always had to be in control of myself, man. And it's, and I've missed a lot of opportunities as far as having fun and partying and all that stuff. But I just was not going to be that dude. And there were times when I let my guard down and lucked my way through stuff, but it was, it's just, it's just crazy. If F, if excellence,

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: wasn't tied to survival or perception, would you still push it as hard? Would you have pushed as hard as you did in your life if you didn't feel like you were in a situation where, if I don't do it, we ain't gonna make it.

speaker-1: Yeah, mean, that's hard though, because I always think in my mind, I would want to be successful anyway. don't feel like I would have been okay with just being, yeah, just being, I'm good with being average now. I don't have a problem with it. But that's after the fact that I don't feel like I have to be to shoot above and beyond, you know. But I think.

speaker-0: in average. Amen. I I could man I wish I could get that. I'm serious man. ⁓

speaker-1: Yeah. I I mean, I should say I feel now where it's like, I mean, I guess, you know what? It's redirecting it into other, to other things is what, is what I'm, I guess what I'm doing now, which I'm trying to get better at, you know, trying to get better at cooking and you know, it's those things where it's like, man, you know, so it's that. Yeah, I'm trying to be the, you know,

speaker-0: you still want your meal to be the best? We had a cocktail competition sort of a little while ago and he's sitting there making them and I'm like, I could make some. That's the kind of thing that I appreciate.

speaker-1: you You Yeah, that's a good one. mean, that would have had to be like for something like that had to be like generations before us where it wasn't put on. Because again, I feel like that survival, that drive is coming from. ⁓

speaker-0: their way.

speaker-1: Yeah, where we're like I got you know, and then just that one I mean just that want for more Yeah, I guess that's what my it was always I more and I want it better not to say that I ⁓ Wouldn't wouldn't happy with mine, you know what I had growing up, but it was like to make my parents Yeah, you know to say so that they could go. Yep That's right

speaker-0: He ate the idiot I thought that was my drive. So that's one of my biggest regrets that I can't control is I wish my dad could have seen me make songwriters. And just because I just just because I felt like he deserved it, you know, and I really wish that it wouldn't have. There's no way I could have done any faster. But it was just like, I really wish he could have been there just to just to hear

speaker-1: Yep.

speaker-0: Even if you don't tell me just for my mom to tell me later that sorry, you know, When he passed I was still But knucklehead I was almost saw first class. I was I was an instructor at the NCO County So I was squared away, you know, cuz I made you know, my progression was on point, but ⁓ I just And I'm sure that he probably wasn't even thinking about it. But my whole thing was like I told you before, when I bought my first house, it was with him and mine. Even though he wasn't around, he had already been gone six years. But I was just like, yeah, he'd love this house. And I would imagine him coming over and us watching sports or him coming to hang out with me and all that stuff.

speaker-1: I'm sure that because you had been in the military for how many years but when he passed

speaker-0: Right at that just hit 13 And that's

speaker-1: Yeah, I'm sure he was like, he taking care of us. You know, he be there's something that he's sticking with. He's taking care of him. Because I because if you think about, mean, again, you think about it with our kids, just want my kids to be able to take care of themselves. You know, I want to be take care of themselves. And I feel like the rest of it will work itself out because then they will have that drive, you know, that they'll have that drive and they'll if they want more, they'll want more. They'll do what they need to do. If they don't, then they'll be able to maintain. whatever where they are but I just want them to be able to take care of themselves well like if I'm not here I want them to be able to still take care of themselves and be happy.

speaker-0: Yes, and I want them to be comfortable. Yeah. that's where like I, that's where the second part of this question is like, what if your drive came from curiosity instead of pressure? Do you think you'd be able to say, you know, and the reason I asked this second part of that question is because this is a full circle moment to where our kids are. Every parent had to deal with this point to where they don't

speaker-1: I think it's I think that that's our kids now or it's curiosity and not absolutely not and we put the pressure on and I mean

speaker-0: All right. Absolutely. We take the L's that they don't even see. They see them as, ⁓ well. But we look at it like a tattoo on our forehead, lost. So if you don't know for me, this has been a full circle moment because the point of this is yes, the stress that I've feel that I've had and the exhaustion that I feel that I've had because of the extra weight. but then the more you look into it, accept that weight, you know, or we don't. It's one of those things that if you're...

speaker-1: Do you even realize the weight, you know, whatever the situation is, there?

speaker-0: I don't think you realize it because it's transferred to some parts of it. My dad's experiences in his life were completely different than mine. his experiences, he was born in 44. So he lived through the 50s, the Jim Crow. He lived through the... late sixties seventies were black power was coming up but he'd all of that being called in word or because ⁓ being called colored he experienced that to not where the inward for me grown up was ⁓ outside of black people because they had a thousand definitions but when it came from other races using that word it was automatically intent to degrade her or to hurt me when dad was coming up, it was such a norm that they used it because you didn't have a chance of being a human in their world. You know, so you didn't have a chance. was watching a tick tock the other day and it's from the fifties. And it was from, it was a group of white people and they were talking about the possibility of integrating schools and they were just going, Oh, no, not upset. were on 38. They were on fire because they were sitting there talking about, you know, They're not like us. They don't have the ability. It's already bad enough that they come into the neighborhood, the land value goes down. They're not bringing anything to the neighborhood. Why would we bring them? They don't have the intellect. And then one guy was like, they're just going to have to show us. If it's going to happen, we're not going to welcome them. And I'm just sitting there like. Come on, that was 20 years before I was born. And people were feeling that fired up and that bad about it. And you know, and then you see what's going on now. You're like, where does that anger come from? And then you said it a few times and it's the fear that people have of other races is staggering. especially when it comes to white and black because black people have been here for a long time we're 400 years right and Of those 400 years We have yet to massacre the white race and erase So obvious that that's not the black people that I know and my family and my history all they've Consistently tried to do is improve their place That's all they've tried to do it went from slaves to now. Yes, you're No longer called a slave, but you're still treated like an animal and then they went from that to Jim Crow to where now they just wanna hang you if they can catch you slipping or beat you up or accuse you of something you know and so all we try to do is just everybody wants a house everybody wants a family not everybody but the American dream is still the same and we're still trying to just enjoy that dream and let our kids grow up without being freaking beat down ⁓ Whatever I don't know but my answer that question is I don't know if it wasn't if it wasn't pressure I don't know if I'd be in the military. I don't know like all these years It took for me to be here now to find out my curiosity isn't like social media stuff like that So I don't I don't I don't I can honestly say I don't know where I'd be I don't know I'm still competitive and that doesn't come from well comes from a different pressure ⁓

speaker-1: I mean, it's like, I mean, I think about, think about this more and it's like, I feel like I put the pressure on myself.

speaker-0: And that's the thing, you accepted that.

speaker-1: I mean, I think it got to it got to a point where the pressure was was me. Yeah. Where it was like, OK, this is what I want, you know, because then it turns into what you want. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, and that's it. we were raised with one kind of weight. We passed down what we thought was protection. And now we're watching our kids grow up, they grow now, and they don't have the same weight on their shoulders. They're not carrying what we carry, you know. And then realizing that different doesn't mean deficient or lacking. And that's the biggest lesson that I've had to learn is that if my son's not just like me, that's okay. Because just like me is not like it's the, the epitome of what was perfect.

speaker-1: Yeah, mean, that's, this is basically, I would tell, you know, folks, young kids, whatever, it's okay to be who you are and still be successful.

speaker-0: 100 % so and you measure what your success is not somebody else

speaker-1: So until next time y'all let's keep the conversation going. Come back. Peace.

speaker-0: Alright guys.