speaker-0: So we had you on three years ago. That's insane. I know. just feel I'm like, I just feel like we interviewed you like last year, but no, this was three years ago. April of twenty. And that's a beautiful thing. Welcome to the secret life of Parkinson's, a podcast created by people living with Parkinson's to help break the stigma of a disease no one likes to talk about. Now, here are your hosts.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's been a long time.

speaker-2: Didn't seem like it's been that long. So here.

speaker-0: Jessica Carouser and Brian Baker. But thanks for coming back on. I really appreciate it. I remember Brian and I like every, every so often either something comes up on an episode or, um, I don't know, like there's always a question that comes up and he's always like, we should have Jim back on. like, I know, like we have, we have more questions, but to be honest, I was just watching our, um, episode number 60, which is what you were on. And it was called Employment Advice When Living With Parkinson's. And it's almost like I think everything in there is valuable. mean, 14,000. How many views did it get? Oh, that's how many subscribers. So it's 4,000 views since April. But there are so many people that even like my friends, like the Young Onset group that I have connections with, like they'll talk about work and stuff like that. I'm like, there's a podcast on that. Oh, there's a podcast on that. But this one is, is really important. So I thought we could at least just like hit on some of the key items that we talked about last time, but then also add in anything that you feel is necessary now that, you know, cause I think before you, were only living with Parkinson's for two years and now it's been five. Yeah. So we're moving right along.

speaker-1: and crack something as well.

speaker-0: Are you? Do you like it?

speaker-1: I I haven't had the relief from the pill burden that I wanted. I've had to go on it four times a day. I was going to him at five times a day, and I ended up with this four times a day, but on the other hand, it worked.

speaker-0: Okay. I was going to say, it's just to me, it's just been like, makes it more even keel. Like Brian saw me earlier for like the first, I don't know, hour or so I was here. I was like, why are you shaking? Is your DBS not working? I'm like, no, it's, it's working. I just, I thought I was able to take Krexant at like two or three, but I took it earlier.

speaker-2: Did either of you try to write Harry? Which is made by the same people who make crack songs.

speaker-0: No.

speaker-1: Yeah, correct sounds kind of right. Sorry 2.0.

speaker-2: Yeah, I talked to somebody about that.

speaker-0: I know people that have been on right Tari and they like correct sound better. So whether that's, ⁓ we can come back to that in a minute. Do you still want to talk about it? No. Okay. Okay. So Jim, you were on before episode number 60. ⁓ so give us again, like your background of, ⁓ of your career. And we can talk about those important points that everybody needs to hear if you're still living with Parkinson's and working.

speaker-2: I don't.

speaker-1: Certainly. I started in law by being a Navy lawyer. And then after I got out of the Navy, I was hired by a firm that did nothing about employment law. They were in Atlanta and all we did was employment law. I was assigned to the Americans with Disabilities Act as a young lawyer because the senior lawyers in the firm didn't want to learn new laws. So whenever a new law came out, they would assign it to its junior lawyers and they had to learn it all. So I was doing seminars on the ADA before it became effective, even when the original reds came out and they were totally abandoned and they came up with the new ones. So I've been doing seminars on ADA since before it was effective. When I moved to Seattle, I practiced there, also in a firm doing employment law. I've done seminars on this ever since it came into effect. It's an amazing thing how much it has developed. And then I spent five years working as an EEOC trial attorney, prosecuting.

speaker-0: What's he ever seen?

speaker-2: Ego Habit.

speaker-1: should have blown one up before.

speaker-0: Gosh, you know that.

speaker-1: I think five years with the government and I spent 25 years or 30 years both as a plaintiff's lawyer and a defense lawyer. I've done class actions. I've done discrimination, disability class actions. So I've done a lot of class action work. And generally, it's disability law, I usually know what's going on with it. It hasn't changed much over the years. It's just expanded the definition.

speaker-0: Okay. So one of the things that I thought was really important and it is something that I've brought up to my young onset group a couple of times before is what you pointed out in that first episode in that earlier episode that we did ⁓ the importance of talking to your employer. And yes, everybody can do it at their own time and you have that. But the fact is that they are probably going to notice things before you're ready. for them to notice things and they can fire you for not doing your job. so, but I think a lot of people feel like they get fired because of their, you know, quote unquote, disability of having Parkinson's. But if you're not forthcoming of that, they have nothing to point it to except for your lack of ⁓ performance, I guess.

speaker-1: That's correct. When I was a defense attorney, that is when I represented companies, I used to tell them, do not ask the person if they have a medical problem. You're not allowed to ask. If they're not doing their job, fire them because that's what you do when someone doesn't do their job. If you set them down and say, are you having trouble with drinking? You violated the law. If you ask them, do you have a neurological condition? You violated the law. The easiest thing to do when someone's not performing their jobs is to replace them. So you have this period of time when you're having symptoms that are obvious, but you haven't yet told them about them and you have to decide when you want to let them know about the condition. Once they know you have the condition, then they cannot just fire you for it.

speaker-2: Okay. When you say you have to tell them, am I telling my manager? Am I telling my HR person? Everybody, nobody, you know, when you say them, who, who, who does that target?

speaker-1: It all depends on where you're working. Now, if you're working in a medical office and there's a doctor who is the boss of the medical office and there's an office manager who's the boss, you go to the office manager and you would tell the office manager, this is my situation. If you're working in a company, HR department, you would probably go to the HR department. If you have a supervisor that you trust and that you think really likes you, then you go to your supervisor. But Once you've told your supervisor or the HR department or the owner or anyone in management, the company knows that you have the condition. So you get to pick who you want to go to. Go to the person you're going to be comfortable talking

speaker-0: But not just a coworker. Like you have to tell somebody in leadership or management.

speaker-1: Telling a coworker is the worst thing to do because they are going to gossip and their gossip is not knowledge. So the employer can then fire you based on the gossip and there's nothing you can do.

speaker-0: And I would like to say it's not just the visible symptoms, like, you know, people thinking of your, they see me shaking or they see this, but I've had, I had cognitive decline or the, the executive function issues. And that's where I knew myself. I told my employer right away, but like, I knew myself when I wasn't performing at what I think is peak performance. And that's why I stepped down to go part time, but it's if, if they didn't know that. I'm assuming they would have questioned or said like, ⁓ this, you know, this isn't working out anymore or whatever.

speaker-1: I'm in the same situation. My primary early symptoms are cognitive symptoms. I used to be very worried about Lewy body dementia because of that, but I've been in it long enough now that I don't worry about that anymore. My boss called me in and told me, you're not doing your job properly. We have meetings and you don't do what we tell you to do in the meetings. We have private meetings and you don't tell, we don't do what we tell you to do. Because to be honest, I couldn't remember what they told me to do. Hmm.

speaker-0: Is this before you were diagnosed? Okay.

speaker-1: Yeah. to a meeting and I sit there in the meeting and so I have no idea what's going on here and I'd walk out of the meeting and have no memory of what was said to me.

speaker-0: When did you retire? ⁓ wow. Okay. Did you feel your cognitive abilities come back?

speaker-1: That's a good question. I know that I could not do a trial and that's what I was doing. was prosecuting at that time. I retired from the government and I was just prosecuting and the job to do. And I realized I can't do a trial because of the multitasking. When you're questioning a witness, you have to see the witness. You have to hear what they're saying. You have to see the jury. You have to see the judge. You have to know who's coming next. You have to go to your next step in the questioning. And that was just not something I could do. And I don't think I could do it.

speaker-0: Going back to what we were saying about not telling, not necessarily, not just telling a coworker, but telling somebody in management and depending on who you tell, is it important to document it? Like for you as the person to document the conversation? Like, cause I'm sure people work better or how to document it.

speaker-1: Assume that everything's going to go wrong. Assume that someone's going to lie and say you didn't see them or that they may be like, do and not remember that you saw them document every make a note that I spoke with them this day. Don't take notes in the meeting because they're going to be very suspicious, but document. that you've talked to this person on this day and set a deadline for yourself that you want something done with it. If you're talking to them, what you're going to say to them is very important. You're going to tell them, I have this medical condition. I have Parkinson's disease. You should tell them what you have. You don't have to, but you should. I have Parkinson's disease. It's affecting my work in the following ways. And that's what you tell them.

speaker-0: So you know what I think is interesting? So like my mom, like growing up, I remember her always telling me like, you know, different things that you don't have to disclose or say, you know, in the workforce or like years ago when women wouldn't even say like when they were pregnant, you know, at work because they didn't want to get fired because that was the time that, you know, a lot of women weren't working yet. And I remember just like always hearing these things. It's like, you don't have to tell them that or you don't have to say this. And it's like, but now I mean, yes, for this instance, it's important, but I just, feel like our society now, like with my kids age and even just the people in their twenties and thirties, it's like, they want to share, they probably overshare and, they also want the empathy. So it's almost like, you know, how you said earlier, ⁓ employers can't ask or say, do you have a problem or are you sick or something wrong? I wonder if like the generation now is like, I can't believe you didn't ask me. You just fired me without asking me anything. It's like, I'm just curious to see how that kind of plays out.

speaker-1: I will tell you, it has always been that way. I used to constantly get calls from clients and they would say, Joe over here is not doing his job anymore. I think he's drinking too much. I'd like to say something to him. And the answer is yes. What you say to him is you're fired or you say to him, you've got to do a better job, but you do not say, you drinking? Never ask that question. You don't want to know why he's not doing his job. I had a secretary once, she was my secretary for three years and somebody came in once and they were sitting in my office and they said, you know, your secretary seems very nice. Is she married? And I said, I don't know. Why would I know if my secretary's married? It's got nothing to do with work. I don't ask her about her family. She doesn't ask me about my family. She's my secretary.

speaker-0: Yeah. Let's say you did tell somebody in management that you have Parkinson's and there was like a, you know, big swooping like layoff situation at your company and you were part of it. But like you're the only one in your department. Maybe that was part of it. Like, is there any, like, do people get stuck in that like from a legal standpoint or did like the person with Parkinson's, do they, do they step up to say like, ⁓ I was only part of this layoff because I, cause you knew I had Parkinson's.

speaker-1: And that's what you have to do. You have to decide once you've told them you have Parkinson's, they have to consider that in everything they do. They're not allowed to forget about. So if they decide to do a layoff and they're going to, they have to have a basis for their layoff. I, when I've run with companies that had to do layoffs and we've done, I've done layoffs of 200,000, 2000 people at a time. actually prepare ahead of time, but chart. and you decide what your standards are and you decide who you're going to lay off and you have a reason for everyone you lay off and you go by that reason. And if you don't do that, you're going to find yourself caught in a lot of lawsuits because people don't know why you let them go. Seniority is always easy. I kept the people who've been here long. That's easy. I'm doing 10 % in every department and I'm going to take the last 10 % that were hired. That's easy. But if they have no standard that they can apply, then they are going to have to prove that they didn't do it because of your.

speaker-0: Are there a lot of cases that, like when does an individual know that they should push on that? know, cause there's a lot of small companies that they might not have that type of charter. So is it common for somebody like with a disease like that to go back after a company and is that expensive?

speaker-1: Well, I did a search this morning. There have been 139 reported cases of Parkinson's disease and disability clients. So that's not a lot of cases considering it's a 340 year old law now. It passed in 1990, so it's a 36 year old law. That's not a lot of cases. And that's all the cases that there are in the country on Parkinson's disease, disability, and the ADA. So it hasn't come up that often. I think the problem is... In order to make the claim, there are three things you have to do. You'd have to show that you're a person with a disability and that's easy. You've got Parkinson's. Parkinson's is going to be a disability. I know some employers who will argue about it. If you're in the early stages, it's mild. It's not really a problem. They're not going to get anywhere because it gets worse. It is going to be a disability, whether or not right now it's really, really bad. It's still going to be a disability. The key then is that you have to be able to show that you can do the essential functions of the job with or without accommodation. You don't have to show you can do them without any help. You just have to show that you can do them and that there's a way to make you able to do them. And then you have to show that they didn't do that, that they didn't make you able to do it or that they fired you because you said you had this part of the system. So that's what you're dealing with. Those are the three things you care about. And if you can do the essential function and these other things are giving you trouble, then you should tell them about it and ask for the help. Now, if there less than 15 employees, then the law may not cover them.

speaker-0: Hmm.

speaker-2: That was going to be my question. So they have to have at least 50 employees to be correct. ⁓

speaker-0: I didn't know that.

speaker-1: the federal law. Right. federal law, which can be fewer. So instead of Washington, the law has eight employees. So if a person has eight employees, then you can sue them under the Washington law, but not the federal law. However, the Supreme Court of Washington decided they didn't like the eight employee rule either, so they made it one employee. So in Washington, any employee can sue anybody for discrimination. Different states have different standards. think Michigan is eight. Some states, three or five. You just have to look at your state. If there's a study law, many states don't have law.

speaker-0: I know that there's always the question of, I'm starting a new job. Do I tell them? What do you recommend?

speaker-1: The best advice I give to people is if it's not evident, if you're not going to sit in the interview shaking, they can't tell you have it, then why tell them? If you think you can do the job and it's not evident, then you don't have to tell them anything. You tell them when you look at the job and find there's something you can't do. So if they hired you to be a typist,

speaker-0: When do you tell them?

speaker-1: Well, you can type, but if you're if you get there, you start doing the job and you realize that because of your tremor, you can't type fast enough than telling you how Parkinson's and they're to have to do something about the fact that you can't type fast enough because of your Parkinson's. They'll have to do speech to text or something else to make it work for you, because that's what regional accommodation does.

speaker-0: What do you say to somebody like me who I just feel like I couldn't hold that back. Like I would just feel horrible. It's like, you know, again, same thing. Like when people were pregnant, let's say you're three months and you're not showing it. It's like, I don't have to tell them I'm pregnant. It's like, but I could never not, I could not do that. Like, cause I would be so pissed if I was a manager and it's like, why wouldn't you tell me this? And it's like, but I know it goes into your what? No,

speaker-2: I I've been very upfront with my employers after I got the job. Because I have resting grouchy face. I'm like, some people think I'm the grumpy old guy in the corner. I'm like, no, not at all. Yeah, ⁓ well, that's debatable. So that's why I was like, or hey, if you have problems...

speaker-1: And you're not there at all.

speaker-2: you know, understanding what I'm saying or my tone isn't good enough, please ask me to repeat myself or speak up. ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Once you have the job or once you have a conditional offer for the job, then you can tell them anything you want to them. Now, conditional offer means that they've chosen you for the job if they said something like, ⁓ we'll give you the job, but you have to pass a physical. Well, okay, well, then you can tell them because they've given you a conditional offer and Parkinson's should not make you fail a physical. So that's a good way to handle it. Once you have in hand that you're going to have a job, well, then you just tell them what's a problem and what's not a problem. If the Fed is a problem, you just tell them that's a problem. Obviously, executive function, as you were talking about, is the big deal. Jessica, you did a video at your job some time ago. Yeah, I remember that. And to be honest, I've been tempted to show it when I've made presentations.

speaker-0: Your face is a cop. when I was crying. Go ahead.

speaker-1: an outstanding job of explaining exactly what this is like for someone with Parkinson's, of how you feel when you're at the job. You feel like you can do it, but you're not sure you can do it. You ought to be able to do it, and you used to be able to do it, and I thought that was just an outstandingly honest video.

speaker-0: Thanks. Feel free to use it. It's on it's on YouTube. It is there for everybody. But honestly, I did get a lot of comments from that video. And it was just something that like, because, you know, when we're on here, it's like, everybody sees us as you know, mostly having a good day, because it's a couple hours out of our Friday once and once a month. But like that was I still remember just being on a conference call and multiple conference calls like on zoom and I just was like, I just fell apart and I was like, would be a good thing to capture to show people like I am not okay all the time. Like, and the executive function for me was it was, and I don't work now right now anymore. ⁓ post DBS surgery, but, it's, I feel bad because I know it's, I say, I feel bad. I feel bad for like my husband, for example, because it's like, I know I can work and there's probably there's things I can do, but to go back into that, it's just like, it's a whole. Like even like right now, like I don't know why I can't find some of my words today, but it's like, it's driving me crazy. But if I was in front of leadership or a client or an agency or something, like it would just weigh on me that, like that much more right now, it's just Brian. So it's fine.

speaker-2: Can you explain at what point in time maybe somebody might want to apply for like FMLA?

speaker-1: And that's a totally different thing. Of course, ⁓ family medical leave act is has nothing to do with, you know, being able to do the job. That's just a function of you needing time off because of your medical condition. Now, it doesn't apply to nearly as many people. You have to work there for at least a year. You have to work at least, I think, twelve hundred and eighty hours during that year. And then you can ask for for leave under family medical leave act. So if you were, for example, having DBS surgery. You can use family and medical leave to have DBS surgery and time to recover from

speaker-0: and your caregiver can do the same, right? Okay.

speaker-1: If you're married, yes. I don't think it's yet been extended to non-married couples, but I would have to check that to be honest.

speaker-2: And when you do that, do they need at that time? they, if they haven't disclosed yet, because I'm just thinking, you know, when you, you know, we all have this early on where we have multiple doctors appointments, especially when you get into DBS, you have a testing session. So at what point should, should somebody maybe consider applying for FMLA?

speaker-1: Yeah, femalize for when you've got a specific time period that you need, like for a DBS surgery or focused ultrasound or traveling somewhere to visit a special doctor. What you're primarily thinking about is your work, your work schedule. What time do you come to work? What time do you go home? What time do you get a break? These are things that are reasonable accommodations because of your disability. And you can go in and say, listen, I've got Parkinson's. I take sentiment. Every three hours, I have an off period of about 30 minutes, and I can't do my job during that 30 minutes. They then are being asked to accommodate by telling you, you can take that 30 minutes off, go sit in the dark room, and wait for your e-medicine to kick in.

speaker-0: You could do that. They could like you don't have to tell them you're taking a nap. You just have to tell me you're waiting for your meds to kick in. Right. Again, I'm not working. So I'll use Brian as an example. So like I now like I do nap almost every day, sometimes just for an hour, hour and a half. It's better than two hours. ⁓ I mean, it's just like it's the only way I can get through my day. And it's like

speaker-1: I know, I know.

speaker-0: I don't know, I look at like one or two o'clock and I'm like, Oh my God, I still have to cook dinner. still have to get the kids to sports and I still have to, you know, just be a mom, wife and hang out with friends sometimes every once in a while. so it like, so Brian can like ask his employer. I mean, they could say no, right?

speaker-1: he needs it. And they then can only say no if it's not a reasonable accommodation. So if he needs 30 minutes to go sit and recover, then under what job is 30 minutes to sit and recover not going to be acceptable? Yeah. Maybe if you're an ambulance driver, because they've got to have somebody to drive the ambulance and they don't have a backup for you, that would be an issue. But if you're a person working in an office, that's not an issue.

speaker-0: Do have to give them a specific time or you just say like, just need 30 minutes every day. I mean, it's like literally like a lunch break, but it's like, does it have to be a specific time or obviously if he has a meeting scheduled, you know, people, people will be, I'm assuming like it'll be reasonable about it. I'm sure there's people who aren't.

speaker-1: Well, the nice thing about this is that you don't have to give any parameters. This is their problem.

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: you identify the issue. I work four hours in a row. I have to have 30 minutes. That's their problem. The law requires them to accommodate you. It doesn't require you to accommodate them.

speaker-0: Now who do you talk to about that?

speaker-1: Again, that's the same thing. do the HR people if it's a big company, you do the owner if it's a small company, you do your supervisor if you trust the supervisor, but the burden becomes theirs once you tell them there's a problem. So before you talk to them, you identify what the problems are that you're having at work. The problems that I was having was I couldn't remember what they told me to do. I was having difficulty typing because of my tremor and I was having difficulty walking. That is, would walk and I just kind of go to the left and go right, know, the way we're locked. And that's what they talked to me. They're the ones that got me in my dock. And I went to the dock and he referred me to Center of Excellence here and they said, yeah, that's what you got.

speaker-0: Kind of drunk. Wow. But so like, let's say you do work for a smaller organization, you know, over 15 people, but like it's still smaller. And because I was at a small size company and I'm, I assume, and I'm hopeful that the owners, mean, they're very smart individuals that they would, you know, look into it if they didn't know enough about it. But I feel like there are, there's definitely got to be employers out there. They're like, I'm okay. That's your problem, not mine. So it's like, what, what like, What does somebody need to look up to bring with them to say, no, this is actually like a law that every employee, employment has to figure out? What do people look up?

speaker-1: The EEOC would have handouts that you could give them for general information on the ADA. are lots of things for people to pick up and give to them. ⁓ And you just have to explain to them kind of what's going on. That this is a problem. This is what's happening. If you've got some people you think you want them to call, you can give them their names. There's a ⁓ national group that does accommodation. they can look at all these different things. But the key is to be very reasonable. when you go in there, you're not, you're not going in there demanding, you're not going in there saying, I've got these rights and you've got to observe them. You're going in there saying, I've got this job that I really like and I've got this problem and I would like the problem not to be in the way of the job. And that way you're complimenting them. You're giving them the chance to make the decision. And what they ought to do at that point is call whoever they're using for employment advice and find out what they need to do. But there are all sorts of things they can do. They can change your schedule. They can change where you sit. If you're having trouble with urology, if Parkinson's is making you go to the bathroom all the time, they could move you closer to a bathroom. They can give you a new parking place because you're having trouble walking into the room. So, for example, if you've got a disability and they say, if part of it is walking, you have difficulty sometimes walking. And you said I'd like to park close to the door and said, well, there's a handicap right there. You could use that. That's not an accommodation. The handicap spots not there for you. It's there for everybody and their dog. They need to give you a

speaker-0: Okay, so going back to this question, because again, not everything is visible. If you were getting a new job, you're and you know you have urinary urgency issues that you have to be close to a bathroom. Do you tell them beforehand or do you wait until after?

speaker-1: I would not because then you're getting into the details of Parkinson's, which they really don't need to know at that point.

speaker-0: God, I like to tell everybody everything.

speaker-1: Be honest, there's a good thing about that. There's a, there's a good moral basis for that. But the law is not really concerned with more.

speaker-0: I know. I know.

speaker-1: The law is concerned with what your legal rights are. It's your right to keep your mouth shut. It's your right not to tell anybody anything until it becomes an issue. And when it becomes an issue, then you tell them the truth.

speaker-0: even if it's on day one.

speaker-1: Sunday one, a company called me once and this was the problem. They California company and they had hired. They'd offered this woman a job as the controller of their company. And they found out before she came to work, but after they had hired her, you know, she was like in a leave period from her prior job that she had a condition. So they called me and said, well, she doesn't work here yet. So she's not an employee. So she's not covered. And I told him this was a good way to lose a lawsuit because the fact that you've already offered her, if you now reject her, that's a negative act into some basis of your disability and you're going to lose.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I think I just found you a little nap time during the day.

speaker-2: I have a very understanding employer.

speaker-0: But honestly, like I never even, never ever would have thought of that. I mean, you think of certain things like, okay, I need to have like a voice, something that helps me type or I need to like this type of accommodation. I never thought of napping being an accommodation.

speaker-1: Well, for example, on the video that you did, part of the struggle you were having is that you were having these back to back conference. If I remember correctly, you can just tell your employer, I can't do back to back conferences. I have to have at least 30 minutes or 40 minutes, whatever time you think you need between conferences in order to get my head around what the new conference is going to be, finish my notes on the old conference and be prepared to represent this company properly.

speaker-0: Yes. Okay, so, sorry.

speaker-2: No, you unlove all your questions.

speaker-0: I'm like, I'm not even working anymore, but this is totally just like bringing things back. So are they able to say like, like, I mean, cause I did, I did, I could manage my own schedule. Like I could easily just say like, I am blocking out, you know, one to two or 11 to noon, but it was, it was different for me a little bit almost every day. I mean, it was pretty consistent with like between 11 and two, it would happen at some point. ⁓ but like, can they put it back on you to be like, well, manage your schedule, like put. Block your time, like give yourself some time. You don't have to say yes to every meeting. Can they put that back on you I assume?

speaker-1: Because then they're accommodating you. They're telling you, you have permission to take into account your disability instead of your own schedule. So they have made a reasonable accommodation and you just say thank you and you move off and do it.

speaker-0: It's almost like I need somebody to make it happen for me. Anyways, okay. Well, this was great. Thank you so much for coming on again. ⁓ I guess the one last question that I have for you is, there anything new that people need to be aware of since the last time we spoke or anything that you've seen come up that is important for people to know?

speaker-1: Not really. black, guess that employment law, the big thing is this employment law, basically in discrimination for disability comes in 1999. It's been 36 years. Every HR person you deal with knows this law. I used to go around teaching people who had never heard of the law. These are old guys who work when everything was tough and you fired everybody and you had to explain to them why they're not allowed to do that anymore. This law has been here for so long. Everyone in your generation knows this law. Everyone in your generation who runs a business has run a business under this law as long as they run it. They don't have any excuse for not knowing. And I will say the other thing is that when you're dealing with more businesses that are controlled by younger people and by women, you're going to find less trouble. Because the old guys, they didn't like being told that they had to do this. You don't like being told that you have to...

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: $20,000 piece of equipment so this person can keep their minimum wage job, but you might have to. So they opposed it and they fought it, but I don't know the employers are fighting it in, not the big ones.

speaker-0: Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. ⁓ I think it's very important for those to see episode number 60 from three years ago, ⁓ as well as this one. But this was wonderful. We really appreciate your time.

speaker-2: Thanks.

speaker-1: Well, thank you. Call me if I've never been here.

speaker-0: Absolutely. Well, in our last 30 seconds, I will leave you all with this. I'm not to say you're going to go in telling your employer and your manager that you need an app, but there are different things that you can ask for that will, that they need to be able to accommodate you for within reasonable. ⁓ Making reasonable accommodations. Thank you. God, this word search today is really difficult.

speaker-2: Here is what

speaker-0: But yes, please watch episode 60 as well as this one to learn more about how you can work with your employer and working, living with Parkinson's and hopefully living a better life with Parkinson's as you still continue to work. So with that, we will see you all next time.

speaker-1: you

speaker-0: Doom.