Tanya Franklin: I'm Tanya H Franklin and welcome to tricks my dog taught me a podcast for light-hearted and occasional deep conversations with family and friends Revolving around my journey as a dog mom to my little guy Zach the toy poodle which Prompted me to self publish my first book Katrina: You Tanya Franklin: Shit my dog taught me where I share some of my insights and poetry and weekly life lessons. So for today's episode, I invited my younger cousin Katrina Walter who lives on the other side of Pennsylvania in the Pittsburgh area. So we don't get to see each other as much in person. So that makes this episode that much more special. So today, week 13 poem, you barking at me. That's going to be the basis for our conversation. And I'm excited to get your insight, Trina. So before we get into that, I want to share the poem with you and our listeners just to give you some context. You barking at me? You bark. Is it at me? Discern when to ignore friends or foes. Don't engage or just bark back. And so. Katrina: you you Tanya Franklin: For various reasons, know, dogs might bark. It could be because it's something they observed. I know that when Zach hears another dog barking in the distance that he'll start barking and you know, maybe they're communicating with each other or maybe they're arguing about something. I don't know. And Zach's just trying to get the last word in, but it me think about how humans operate. You know, sometimes when we hear someone barking or Katrina: Mmm. Tanya Franklin: I guess raising their voice or being confrontational, we have to consider first if it's towards us and then second, how are we going to respond or react to that? And so I'm not one who seeks out confrontation and I have had many experiences as a kid and an adult in my home life, work, social life, being confronted. So I remember dealing with confrontation. Katrina: Thank ⁓ Tanya Franklin: from my sister and definitely the bullies when I was in grade school and middle school. So I'm wondering, have you ever experienced a person being confrontational with you? Katrina: ⁓ Yes, I've experienced a lot of confrontation in school ⁓ and also in the workplace. Confrontation in school is basically your typical neighbor or your typical person that thinks they Tanya Franklin: Mmm. Katrina: are better than you because they're either flashy or have something that you don't have. Confrontation ⁓ pretty much provokes the other person and I didn't like that as a kid. When I was a kid, I got provoked a lot. So I became the quiet one and more observant as to what was going on in my surroundings. So when I started to observe and see how other people would take on to intimidate another peer in school, Tanya Franklin: Hmm. Katrina: I kind of watched how that would, you know, red flag me down the road. I got confrontation when my sister would typically do something and I had to get into the mix. So being in school with my sister, was like, you kind of, you kind of wanted to, you know, steer away from what she was dealing with, but you want to also keep an eye as well as to who. Tanya Franklin: Hmm. Hahaha Katrina: is surrounded and who was provoking the confrontation at that moment. So I've dealt with confrontation as a child and I dealt with confrontation as an adult in work mode and dealing with somebody that has issues and either had a bad day. When they had a bad day, it was a lot of, okay, let's see how I can maneuver this person or make this other person have a bad day as well. Confrontation in the workplace is something that I Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: truly wish didn't happen. would think a lot of people are a little bit older and had that right frame of mind as to not bring your issues to work, but some does. So for me to avoid confrontation is I just stay away from the issues as much as I can. I don't engage into the confrontation because I don't want for someone to feel like I'm a part of the situation when it could be a problem that could be resolved as well. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm. We have that in common. Definitely, you know, because I, I try to avoid it as much as possible. And I know that at some point, the confrontation will find me. ⁓ But like you said, if it's if it involves people that I know, what I try to do is stay one step ahead of it. So for instance, if you know, we know people in our lives, whether they are family or Katrina: Hehehehehe Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Mm. Tanya Franklin: Friends of friends who they might just have a confrontational way that they do things and you know that they have a contentious nature So you might say okay, I'm gonna at least for me. I'll try to avoid Certain subject matters that I think are going to set them off and I mean granted I know I shouldn't have to walk around on eggshells Katrina: Right. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: But I would rather put my energy in as something that matters to me and not argue or get myself all flustered by someone and and so definitely That's something that I think about often and how can I avoid it? So I'm wondering so when you do Have someone confronting you how do you handle? confrontation when there is No avoiding it Katrina: Right. I'm gonna go home. you ⁓ I handle it to the best of my ability. try to not get argumentative, angered. ⁓ I try to keep as much as stress level down as much as I can. Because that person that may bring the confrontation to me is trying to see how I'm going to react to the situation, how I'm going to react to the response. And if I don't give a reaction, they're not going to get what the outcome that they're expecting for it to be. Tanya Franklin: Mm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: So that's how I basically benefit from not getting confrontational along with avoiding confrontation. That helps a lot. Tanya Franklin: Mmm, know what it does. I will say however sometimes at least for me when I don't Rise to the level they are where they're going from zero to 100 It gets them very upset that I'm not being confrontational back So it's weird because I'm not being confrontational back and it makes them get angrier Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Tanya Franklin: Why aren't you yelling back? you know, I mean, it's tricky for me sometimes because it's like when it involves people, I know that's one thing, but when it involves people I don't know. For me, that's a slippery slope because I... Katrina: Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: I don't want any fights breaking out. I've never fought ever in my entire life. I've never been in a physical fight before and except for sparring like doing kickboxing or something. But it's it's for me if what I perceive as a threat presents itself and this person is clearly an aggressor. What I try to do is I let them keep barking or keep yelling or whatever they're doing. And I try to walk away. Katrina: No. Right. Six. Seven. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: Because I don't have a clear sense of what their mind frame is and these days you never know, right? So to you keep that analogy going like that dog analogy going if they start growling and showing teeth I don't know what set them off either because sometimes people get angry and you're like, I don't even know what set them off, right? I'll never forget one time. I'm waiting. I'm in my car. I'm driving Katrina: Yes. Mm-hmm. You know. Right. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: I'm waiting ⁓ at the corner, it's a red light, and there's a sign that says, no turn on red. Person behind me is laying on the horn, and I can see they're pointing like, know, why aren't, I'm just imagining them saying, why aren't you going? What's matter with you? And so I just pointed to the sign, like saying, hey, it's no turn on red. Person gets out of their vehicle. Katrina: Eww. right. Mm-hmm. Yay! Tanya Franklin: This is only happened to me once in my life. They get out of their vehicle to come up to my car. And I'm like, it was a summer day. I rolled my windows up like, listen. And I just act like I didn't even hear them. And I'm like, I'm doing one of these and they're yelling at me. And I'm like, I'm not getting, I mean, I didn't say anything and it's not a matter of me saying, hey, know, I'm gonna be a punk in this moment. But I'm like, if they're that bold and that confrontational to get out of their vehicle and come up to mine. Katrina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Tanya Franklin: I don't want to take any chances with this person because of that. And I just thought to myself, I'm like, well, you know, they can go around if they, if they are that intent on going and they want to break the traffic rule, then by all means go around. But I'm wondering how, how do you handle it when it's that level or maybe it hasn't been to that level. ⁓ but when you're confronted by someone who you don't necessarily, Katrina: Bye. It looks good. Tanya Franklin: No, do you react the same way as with it might be your sister? It might be someone at work? Katrina: So typically when I'm in a confrontational situation It goes to levels as you mentioned there could be a level where someone misunderstood or someone just had not understood the material as such and Their language is aggressive. Their tone is massive their body language is what you want to do type of thing. And I choose to not be reacting to how their body language is, but I listen first before I respond and then engage and say, you know what? It seems like you're a little upset with the situation. apologize if there's something further that I can do to help you. Cool. But if it gets too violent. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: Whereas I have to take extra precautionary measures when it becomes too violent, I would try to deescalate the violence before it gets to being someone being hurt. When that is being said, for instance, when you were in a car and someone came up to you and you pointed to the sign and says, you know, no turning on red, for me, my precautionary measures is I have my kids in a car. So if that situation happened to me, if somebody is real, I rate to pass. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: or for me to turn into a red light and it says don't turn on red and you're coming up to my car, for me, I'm looking at it as a safety issue. Now you're approaching my car with my children in the car. So for me, I don't roll my windows down. I don't step out the car to engage further into that person's issue. Me, I would typically drive off. But if you're doing damage to my car, I'm physically now calling the police and I'm making sure that my kids are safe or in a back trunk so that way nothing happens. at this point I'm watching my surroundings just to make sure nobody's hitting my car, damaging my car, or striking anything to the windows to hurt my children inside of the car. Now if that normally takes place, then now you have my attention. Then at this point, I want to make sure that everything is okay with my kids. And then I say, well, what's the problem? What's going on? Sometimes you have to get into defense mode. Now, Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: I've been in so many fights. I'm not perfect. I'm not perfect. I have been called Tyson so many times, it's not even funny. But our parents was basically like, if someone hits your sister, you better make sure you're there to hit them back. And I said, well, I'm not putting myself in that situation if she has something to do with it. But I had to be the protector when our parents were not available. So. Tanya Franklin: I know you have! Mm-hmm. Katrina: Fight unseen. If one person sees eyes, make sure you protect. So once the information was taken care of, once the person was taken care of, and once everything in that heat of the moment was de-escalated, the other party may say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I was out of line. I'm sorry that I misunderstood. I'm sorry that I came at you that way. And that's when you hear other people's aspects of... Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: Well, this took place around this time and I was so, so upset. So much going on throughout that day that I just took my frustrations out on you and I apologize. Okay, thank you. Because you don't know what happened to that person throughout the day for them to get to that point. And by you acting the way they are in the midst of that moment, you could hurt yourself. You can be stressing yourself out. So I choose to not be violent as I got an order. And I choose to listen to the situation or some most of the time ignore the situation because it'll pan itself out down the road. Tanya Franklin: Hahaha Mm-hmm. Definitely definitely and you know I mean I'd like that you pointed that out because for me I think about how people even identify themselves like you might say passive Assertive or aggressive or maybe even some combination depending on the scenario like even us talking about that car one I mean I would say for me in childhood. I was probably more passive than ⁓ Assertive and certainly not aggressive but in adulthood I would say I'm Katrina: you Hmm. Tanya Franklin: Dominantly assertive, but occasionally I might revert to being passive depending on the scenario ⁓ But you bringing up your children. It made me think about how when it comes to my daughter I can be very Aggressive and when I say very aggressive, I don't mean it in a confrontational way I mean it more so I'm defending her in some capacity where I see that there's a threat or harm could potentially Katrina: you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. right. Tanya Franklin: be done and then I go into mama beer mode. I'm wondering how do you label yourself? Katrina: Mm-hmm. Well... My kids are challenge. And I humble myself with knowing that they're okay. I know when there's issues at school, I try to make sure that they understand to not engage in situations at school where it could potentially get them in trouble. ⁓ With that being said. Tanya Franklin: Yeah. Katrina: When they engage into a situation that can possibly get them suspended or have them be in detention, you kind of guide your kids to now understand, well, this is what happened, how it happened, why did you get to that level, what did we learn from the situation? So I try to speak to them to have them understand you don't do certain things at school. If you're not doing that at home, why do it in another place? Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: Why not follow directions when you have another adult that's there present? If you're not doing that with me, why are you doing it while I'm not there? A lot of kids feel as though that's an open way of, my mom is not here, my dad is not here, I can do whatever I want and not get in trouble. No, no. Other adults see that. Other adults know and engage with us parents from school to say, okay, I know your mom and dad is not going for that. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: don't do this or you know I'm gonna give you one, two, three chances but after that fourth chance then I'm have to call your mom. I try to let my kids know you are a reflection of me and your dad. And when you do things of nature that you know that you're not supposed to, there's consequences with that. You may not get something from the store or you may not wanna go to the trampoline place that you were so waiting for the whole weekend but you acted up throughout the week. Tanya Franklin: Yes. Mm-hmm. Katrina: You have opportunities to change, but then you kept on progressing to that nature of aggression, assertiveness, ⁓ confrontation. You don't want to keep doing that if you want something. But when I get a report from the schools that you were bad and then I asked you when you come home, hey, hon, how was your day? ⁓ it was good, mom. So why did the teacher tell me? Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: We already know the report prior before our children come home and when we give the child that extra boost, say, hey, could you tell me how today was? And then they say, ⁓ it was great, Mom. But then I got, you know, a different side of what it was. I'm giving you that opportunity to tell me before I basically say, okay, well, why did you do it? What was the reason? Why couldn't you tell me the truth? Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: And then later when I mentioned it, now you want to tell me the truth. It's too late. It's too late. So you kind of give them that chance to give it to you right before you say, this is what happened. But they don't feel as though, I don't think my teacher called. I don't think she might have called and told my mom what happened today. Oh, no, but I got that call right after you transitioned to the next class. Tanya Franklin: Yeah, Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Hmm? Katrina: I try to instill in the boys is to be mindful what you do outside of home. You are a reflection of your parents, you are a reflection of this home. And when you do something out of line, it is a reflection of how we are raising you. So keep in mind that when you leave from this place, you have to understand and be rational about your decisions because your decisions can either hinder you or make it perfect. So it's either you want to be good all week and I don't get a bad report or you want to be bad all week and I'm gonna get a report. But I'm not gonna balance out the good with the bad neither. So you're gonna have to pay them consequences or I can reward you. It's your choice as a child. And we've all had that as a kid. I know of as many times I've gotten in trouble and you know, at that point I was in trouble a lot. I had to stay with the grandparents and I couldn't go out on a field trip. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm? Katrina: as bad as I wanted to, I acted up and it was taken away from you in a snap of a hand. I'm trying to raise my children to understand, be mindful of what you do when you step out. Tanya Franklin: That's wonderful because I know I definitely try to instill that and Quinn as well. I think the tricky part however, is that when we think about some people just have a natural Aggression about them and you mentioned before how you wouldn't expect to see it in the workplace like when you were younger but the reality is that These people when they were younger, they will eventually become adults so aggressive when they're younger Katrina: in here. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: If they aren't having certain values instilled in them and i'm not saying aggression is totally bad I don't want to give that impression, but I think there's a time and place and for me If you're aggressive when you're younger and it's not addressed and you're not being told, you know in this circumstance It may not be appropriate. How can we handle this in a way where you're just being assertive as opposed to Aggressive then we're going to be dealing with that when they get older as well. And so I'm thinking like with aggression, not necessarily confrontation, because I think that's a little bit different because confrontations more of when it escalates to another level. How do you handle or react to a person who's just being aggressive with you or, know, whether it's someone that you know, or even someone that you care about. Katrina: Mm-hmm. ride. With aggression, it depends on how the person's temperament can be. You have levels to temperament. I know with my aggression when I was a kid, ⁓ it was wild. It was wild. And when I was able to calm that aggression down, it took a lot for ⁓ me. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: And when I try to make sure that my kids don't get super aggressive, I try to let them know when you get aggressive to the point it's not gonna change my decision. It's not gonna make me go ahead and say, okay, this is what you're gonna have. Okay, this is what's gonna be, this is gonna be done because you're that upset that I didn't give it to you in the first place. I'ma just go ahead, no. If you give a child something what they want because they're that, aggressive towards you, then that's how they're going to feel like they're going to do when they get older, to manipulate somebody, to get that to them because their aggression is so strong. But it may just be to your parents. It may just be, my kid is aggressive towards me because I didn't give them something. It may be different to someone else. Who knows? But if they didn't know how someone else can be when they don't get anything from their teacher, let's put it that way, from their teacher, And they're getting so worked up, they're yelling, they're punching things, they're destroying the classroom. And this teacher still didn't give them anything. They didn't give in and throw in a towel and say, hey, I'm going just give it to you. Because now once the aggression starts to de-escalate, because they're not getting what they're wanting, at this point, it's just like, well, I lost. I'm giving up now. And then now you have to clean up the room because you messed up the teacher's room. Because you destroyed this person's stuff in a classroom based on what you did not receive, this was the outcome. You still didn't get it, but you still have to fix up what you messed up. And that's how I take it is with me. When I tell my kids to clean up the house, I'm not taking you to Dave and Buster's and you destroy the house. Well, we're definitely not going. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: I'm not rewarding you. You can sit up here and have a lash out all day. But the keys to the car is not moving. I'm not opening my door. And the money that I had that I was going to have a fun day with you is going to a bill or is going to go to something else. Because I don't have to give in or throw in a towel and say, OK, you win because you're that up here. You're that upset with me. You're that. pissed off or to the point where I have to give it to you. No, I don't have to give you something because you're that mad. And that's not just with children. That's also with adults as well. Even with managers. ⁓ I expected you to do this. Well, wait a minute. You said we had a deadline here, but you wanted to push it back this, this timeframe. And now this is a priority. Well, that's not what you stated. And then that manager's attitude starts to progress. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: and then they take it up to a pit or they put you on a production. That's not gonna fly here. This is what you stated to me first. This is what you stated to me during the process and this is what you said it at the end. If it's not consistent and for a manager standpoint, the aggression gets higher, I'm concerned and in the workplace, I'm concerned versus me being concerned with my kids because they're my kids. I can handle their aggression at home. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: but I cannot handle somebody else's aggression outside of my home in a workplace. I feel if you're that aggressive towards me that I didn't have something completed in a timely frame, when as you told me one thing and then tell me another, I think there's an issue. And I can't sit up here and resolve your issue, but I know for a fact, I'm not gonna match the energy with you because you're up here. I still need my job at the end of the day. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: I still have to take care of the kids at the end of the day. And if I stick to that person's level, she's not going to get fired. I might get released because how I carry my actions to this person's actions. And I don't want to be that way. So how I keep content with not being aggressive to the other aggressor is to not give in. That's the key thing. Don't give in. Just say, okay, all right. You have it. I'll do it this way. Sometimes being at a minimal kills them. It's almost basically like with my kids. I kill them with kindness. If I don't give it to you, I'm gonna kill you with kindness. And that's how it has to be. But if you get so hoorah-rah with this person and yes, you said this and I'm gonna say this right back at you. I'm gonna hurt your feelings like you hurt mine. What resolution did you resolve? None. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm, yes. Yes. Katrina: So I choose to be okay, calm, walk away, deescalate, yell somewhere else where no one can't hear me, but at least I got my frustration out and it's not on someone. And that's the whole thing, it's not on someone else. Tanya Franklin: Hmm? I love that you said that because I think even in the idea of saying I'm going to take this to another room and get that frustration out and there are times when we might need to be vocal towards that person but more of an assertive way necessarily but you can't take it back once it's out there especially if we're talking about your job so the idea saying I'm gonna get it out some way but not on this person necessarily I mean I know for me I tend to get Katrina: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Tanya Franklin: physically quiet, but the chatter in my head is nonstop. It's like, I'm wondering why is this person being aggressive towards me? ⁓ and if it's truly an issue with me or if it's about them, like you were saying earlier about how sometimes maybe this person was just having a bad day and now their level of aggression has heightened and they're putting that on me. Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: And that doesn't justify it, but I still try to keep that in mind if that might be the issue. And then when I was younger, I used to think that if I could please a person in some capacity, that I would be able to make it clear, not going against my values or anything, but if I could please them, that that would defuse the situation or make them stop being aggressive. Katrina: Mm-hmm. in the Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: But I have to tell you more times than not that just made them more aggressive and this certainly was the case when we were younger and when I say we my sister and I know 18 months apart and she's older and she could be quite aggressive and I know that I would get quiet and I wouldn't engage and Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: She obviously i'm telling my story. She may have a different version, but she would get so angry with me She would get so angry with me because I was not Engaging in her being aggressive towards me. I'm I mean i'm glad that we are not at that place any longer But not even just with her but bullies in school and i'm thinking ⁓ you know, like I said to please them ⁓ this is this is before the days of digital Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Right! No. Right. Tanya Franklin: So I'm burnt. I'll burn you a CD. I'll do like, ⁓ you cause I had all the music and like what you need. That didn't help. Like they take it and then, and then we're back to bullying. So it didn't, it didn't help. So I find that, you know, sometimes we have that aggressor in that person who just seems to be defensive in like whatever you say, they're in opposition and Katrina: Mmm. Tanya Franklin: So I'm wondering, have you ever had encounters with defensive people and how do you handle those type people? Because there is a different type of bark with defensive people. Like you can't say anything nice. You can be like, ooh, you got your hair done. What you mean by that? And you're like, I just was saying you got your hair done. Katrina: right. Right. ⁓ man, I have encountered quite a few defensive people. I know myself, I can be in defense. And when I'm in defense, that's a very argumentative task. Because if I know I didn't do something that you're accusing me of, I'm going to be in defense. That's with people that knows Tanya Franklin: Mmm. Katrina: that you know, they're what they're doing to the extent that they need to do it as such. Nobody wants to be accused. So when you put that defensive hat on, you're going to defend yourself. Me, however, when I was younger, I've always was defensive. I always got blamed. I was always accused. And I always had to tell the truth, defend myself. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: show probable cause on what happened when I was a kid. And it opened my eyes as an adult with other people that I'm dealing with of how defensive they can be. And that can be either in law, that could be either a school student, that could just be a child in itself. And at the end of the day, it's hard because you got to constantly defend yourself in anything that you do, even in the court system. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: If you run a traffic stop and you knew that the light was green and this person just all of sudden came out nowhere, who's the accuser? Who was in defense here? Who had the light first? So with me, that was how it was when I was a kid. And when I was a kid, I was protecting my mindset and also being honest in situations. Now I didn't have the best... Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: of the best parents, you know, they made sure that you told the truth and if something was, if you were accused of something, defend yourself. As I go back to with my sister and I going to the same school, she would be in defense. She would tell me what was going on. I said, okay, are you sure you didn't provoke this person? Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: and I would go step to that person to make sure that they were a mess with my sister. So in defense, I made sure that my sister was okay and wasn't being antagonized by someone else. As an adult now, I still do that, but I do it differently. I defend myself as a human being going into the common workplace to make sure that I'm doing my job diligently and effortlessly. And anything that arises, I defend myself and I show proof. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: To this day and age, you have to show proof on what's going on and how things are being sought out. Because someone can sit up here and say, well, I did this and she didn't do it. Well, wait a minute. I'm going to defend myself because I know I finished something and you asked me for it. Here's my report. Here's my synopsis. Here's the time frame. I'm going to defend myself with receipts, with documents. to show proof that this was done in the aspect that I had it prepared for. Like I said, you're gonna have your managers, you're gonna have your employees that you work with try to provoke you. But in a defense that you have to be in defense, you have to make sure that you have your ducks in order. And that's me. I have to come with ⁓ the guidance of me having to make sure I have everything in order, make sure you're well organized. I'm very... Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: organized when it comes to having to defend myself in any type of measurements and like I said that can either go with the workforce, law enforcement, and my children. My children they'll tell you well mom I didn't do it mom this wasn't here well why is there popcorn wrappers all on the floor who had the popcorn? Nori did, Omari did, so I'm smelling breath at this point to see which one ate the popcorn to make sure that they're telling me the truth so Tanya Franklin: Hahaha Hehehehehe Katrina: Nori will tend to be, he's more of my defense kid. Well, mom, I'm telling you, I really didn't do it. It was Omari, it was Omari. Okay, all right. Omari, are you sure that you didn't do it? Mom, he did it. So it's always the pointing of the fingers who does what. So I can manage that on a child aspect, but when it becomes an adult aspect on how to defend yourself, you have to look at all avenues of things. And when it comes to looking at all avenues, a lot of people have evidence. Tanya Franklin: Hehehehehe Katrina: A lot of people have exhibits. A lot of people can basically go to it, guide you, and show you where the evidence is. And that's in today's society as a whole. It's not necessarily who you're defending for and who you're defending to. It's how you navigate to defend as a whole. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that that's right on point because when you were saying that it made me think about a previous episode I did with one of my friends and few referenced me as passively aggressive we were talking about how if a person's rude and doesn't say excuse me and how we might stand there waiting for them to say excuse me and I bring that up because I will be CC people on emails all the time Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: work related emails because if I know that I feel like something's in question or I'll just blind copy myself on an email if I feel even if I'm not certain that it might be something that comes up I said you know what I want a record of this because somehow it could be ⁓ lost in technology in the world of technology and I can't find the send on it so I'm gonna Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tanya Franklin: blind carbon copy myself and there have been times when it's come in handy where there is someone who is being aggressive and now I can defend myself in using this information that I have. I mean I think that also like when you were bringing up just having to defend yourself and have the basically the checks and the receipts. Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: Think about that for myself that I don't like to have to be in that position But I think you're right that a lot of times people are like, well, what can you prove? Do you have any proof of this? I know that certainly I have so many students who are constantly defending themselves against Plagiarism and I'm like, I don't want to accuse you but we're gonna have to figure out what's going on We got a hundred percent here. What's going on here? But yes, but I mean I think that for me like with Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're right. Right. Tanya Franklin: dealing with people who are defensive. I dealt with a lot of people when I was younger who were defensive, but certainly in adulthood as well, family, friends of friends, because usually they're not my friend directly because then I probably would just distance myself altogether if I found them to be just too aggressive and too defensive as a person. And sometimes people in my daily interactions, it happens as well. And Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: I the problem, I won't say the problem, but I'll say that the issue I find is sometimes these people don't know that they're being defensive or overly aggressive. And I don't make it my business to tell them because then I'm thinking that will that come across as me being aggressive if I say, you know, you're being a little aggressive right now. Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: Or why are you being so defensive because if you ask someone who's being defensive why they're being defensive Do you actually think that's gonna make them be less defensive? No, it's gonna make them be more defensive So I usually don't say anything but what I try to do is I'll try to be kinder to this person and my hope is that maybe they'll be a little less Defensive because like I said before I don't really want to waste my energy. It's so Katrina: bright. You Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: We have such little time on this earth and I don't want to use it getting into negative confrontations dealing with Overly aggressive behavior and defensive people. I mean we're going to have to at some point But as you mentioned a few times if I can de-escalate that if I can defuse the situation by just being kind and then move on Then that's certainly what i'm going to try to do So, ⁓ but okay Katrina: Right. Mm-hmm, exactly. Tanya Franklin: Yeah, so I'm sure you may have heard the idiomatic expression before their bark is worse than their bite. ⁓ But, you know, I often wonder why some people feel the need to bark to begin with just at everybody. And then it's like they leave people trying to assuage them or smooth them over to get to that gentle side. Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: What do you think makes some people just ready to attack at all times? Like they are a continent. We're not even just talking about defensive people necessarily, just someone who's just ready to bark out and they're on the attack all the time. Katrina: Bye. Because you got a lot of you got about a lot of he sayers naysayers and when those people hear from other people like ⁓ your girl said this and your boy said that the girl did you see this post on social media and it gets you so hot-headed to when you finally see this person that all these other people have negative impact on you Tanya Franklin: Hmm. Katrina: That's when your aggression gets so high because you're listening to other people instead of the source. And when you don't hear it from the source, that will anger a person that will have that person animosity and angerment towards you up on high when they see you. So a lot of people will say, well, yeah, it's tight on scene or yeah, she's all she's all bark and no bite. Well, that meaning is You can say all of this nature to someone else, but when you physically see me, you have nothing to say. You're not going to fight me. You're not going to do anything. And that's a sign of intimidation. So for me, for instance, if I'm got an issue with somebody else and I'm hearing it from 10 plus people, it might be true. It might not be true, but I want to physically ask the person that even encountered the issue. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: that spoke it out in the first place. What was your reason on saying something like that? Why would you tell so and so? That's when you don't get a response or you do. And that's when that person is in a defense mode because now they're going to prove to you, ⁓ I didn't say that she's telling you a story. Well, when did they say this to you? It's always two sides to a story. And when you hear the source, Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: When all of these other people were saying something negative about you and you finally see this person and that person said I never said that I never mentioned any of that to her. What are you talking about? They want for you to clash they want for you to Bicker and bite and crawl at that person's face and tear this person wig off and destroy your likelihood of someone It's it's it's a non-factor and being now Tanya Franklin: you Katrina: from when we've grown up, technology wasn't all that. Our technology was riding on our bike before dusk and you went to somebody's house. Now it's cyber bullying. It's cyber confrontation. ⁓ where does she live at? ⁓ she's trying to hide or he trying to hide, so on and so forth. And when you have that type of mentality of barking and then physical altercation, where do you go? Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: Like what did you accomplish there? You didn't accomplish much. And that to me shows that you haven't grown your old ways. You're listening to the naysayers and the naysayers is waiting for you to provoke that person so that way they could feel better that you took that you took the bait and you got to this person. But if you listen to both sides, okay, you heard what the naysayers say. Now see if you can reach this person and say, hey, ⁓ I'm hearing some things and I don't think it's true and I don't think that that's you. But can we have a conversation? Can we talk to see if this is really relevant? And if so, I just wanna know why. That's how certain people should be. But in today's society, that's not happening. That's not happening at all. And to me, Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: I try to teach my kids to don't do that. Don't be hearing what other people are saying about you and then you see that person and you just want to fight and not speak because you never know what that person may have. And it could be any type of instruments. Words are thicker words are not even that it's intimidating. It can intimidate you. Yes, it can hurt you. Yes, but it doesn't make you feel less than of a person. and words can make people feel as such. But if you know that you are strong-willed and have that power to ignore and know that you didn't say those things and that you have truth and you know what those truths are, if you can positively show that person and defend yourself, why not? Some people will be happy. I'm glad you came to me and talked to me about it because I didn't even know that they were saying anything like that. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: Well girl, they ass. So you pretty much want to make sure that you clear the air. And I say that a lot. Clear the air before you just try to throw your fist up and bruise somebody's face. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. I like that you said that because even in just speaking with someone, it makes me think about, like I was saying before in the beginning, dog language that most dogs, they're not speaking. mean, except those, the fluent pet buttons, we have a few for Zach and he can tell us he wants to go outside and things, but humans, can actually speak. We can tell you what's going on with us, or at least let's say most of us can, because sometimes, you know, there are people who might have some learning differences and they're not able to, but overall, ⁓ Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: I think that people can, but I consider when we talk about speaking, I consider yelling. Like you talk about someone saying, you said this and said that I consider yelling and I'm not talking about when you're excited, but that angry, frustrated yelling. And it's a, to me, it's a feeling of barking. It's a form of barking, especially when it's incessant. And so I'll admit that I do not like yelling. Katrina: Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Tanya Franklin: and it is a trigger for me and it impacts me. It impacts my emotional state if someone's yelling at me. So I certainly I don't like yelling at others and I'm not gonna act like I've never have. You know, there's some times when maybe I've gotten upset. It doesn't happen often. Most people who know me, they're like, I've never seen you yell at anyone. I don't like the, you don't ever really hear me yelling at anyone like that. But I did some research. Katrina: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Tanya Franklin: And I found that it says a raised voice, can trigger our threat system. And by doing so that it brings us to this level where it's the fight, flight or freeze state. And so I'm wondering for you, you know, I talked a little about myself like, and how I don't like it. How do you feel when people yell at you? And like I said, we're not talking about excitement or you're having fun at a party and you're like, hey girl, we're not talking about that yelling. Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Right. Right. No. When I've had ⁓ several instances and like I said, you don't know what people are going through in any situation. I've got to yell that. And I probably didn't do anything wrong. They just want to be out. OK. Well, excuse me, Miss Ma'am, I didn't do it. ⁓ But if you could bring it down a notch. And I said, well, what's going on? How could, what happened? Well, they did this and they did that. Now being in the business of customer service, you're gonna get a lot of that. You're gonna get a lot of mixed personalities and you got to be able to put how you navigate to the side to deal with each and every one differently. Everyone is not the same. I am not the same. For me at home, I can tell my kids, Don't do this, sit down, please pick this up, please clean up Iggy's dog poop. And I can say it as calmly as I can. And you got kids today, ⁓ mama, I get it, I'm in a tab, I'm playing this game right now with Omari. Okay, but I asked you to do something. And I can say it as calmly as I can until I've seen it after an hour that I've said it. And now I'm in yell mode because Tanya Franklin: Huh. Katrina: I said it to you calmly and now I went to ask you again and you're telling me I'm gonna do it when it's time for me to do it. That's not what I asked you. And now I see it again still there hours later. Now I'm frustrated. So my frustration turns into yelling. And the yelling has to be, didn't I tell you to pick this up? I told you to pick this up a few hours ago and you didn't do it now and obviously now you're having to do it. But I'm trying to steer away from that because yelling does hurt. Yelling does take a toll on your body. So when you tell a child, asked you to pick this up. You didn't pick it up in time. I asked you to clean your room. You didn't do this. It's hours later. And then as our parents used to do, okay, don't worry about it. I got it. You now take that into consideration of doing it. to prevent yourself from getting argumentative and yelling at that point. But you know when someone's gonna want something from you. And when they want something from you, well, that's when you can put it back in their face. Well, I actually did this a few hours ago and I ended up having to do it. And I don't think what you're asking me right now is feasible to do it for you. A lot of people don't like that. And that's not just a motherly instance to my children aspect. That's actually, you know, in real life as well. Sorry, sir, but I try to work with you to accommodate you, but the way that your temperament is right now, I'm sorry that I cannot help this with you. I'm going to bring it to a supervisor or have my lead review it. That's then the smart way for not only just a mom and a, and to their children, but also to the employee and the work. in the customer service that you deal with on a daily basis. That typically happens. So when you have someone yelling, you don't want to get to their level to yell also. Because if you do, what's the outcome? Nothing. Nothing. There's no outcome. But if you resolve it or you're in and not give them that same energy, they're apologetic. They're like, you know, I'm sorry I had a bad day. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: I didn't mean to yell at you because you don't know what someone's going through that day. There's different types. There's different types of environments of yelling. I yell at my kids when they don't listen to me and I done told them 10, 12, 15 to 50 times, do something. I now try to divert from yelling to say, okay, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. And that's when they'd be like, whoa, yeah. Tanya Franklin: Hmm? We know what that means. ⁓ Katrina: Then that's when they're like, wait, I better do this. ⁓ my God, mama, I'll take the trash out. Mama took the dog out. ⁓ okay, y'all had to ask you this time. But let it happen. If it's not consistent and you constantly keep yelling, that will divert somebody to actually listen to you. You're not physically being able to be listened to because you're yelling. So if you do something that they... Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: didn't expect for you to do. And that's when you told them so many times, so many times, and they just did not do it. And you take on and just do it yourself. Oh my God, my mom did it already. What's going to happen to me now? You know, they're scared. They're scared. like with children, it's different. With people outside of society, it's different. When it's dogs that are having an argument, and we've seen some pets that will have an argument. Tanya Franklin: Mmm. Katrina: they'll defuse that. They'll go back to sniffing, you know, rears of another animal or they're happy that they're outside walking. And it's like, okay, we're going, we're going in. And then there's, got dog parks now with dog parks, all the dogs are out. They're not cooped in the house in the snow. They're good. So once they're out there just laughing around, I would say dogs laugh around because you know, they're barking so much. It's a good. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katrina: It's a good environment, just like kids. You take kids to the park. They're having fun. They don't want to go back home. They've been cooped up in the house all winter. So when you take them out to different places and different avenues, when you don't yell as such and you just say, okay, it may be me, or I might just be the one that's just having a bad day. You don't want to give that type of energy off to your children. to the workforce and for our dogs. Our dogs can feel that. They're not human, but they sense human energy. So you just want to be mindful of that as well. Tanya Franklin: Yes, yes, yes. I definitely agree with that and just the point you made with the dog is right on target because even sometimes their bark sounds like they're talking like like I know Zach when and it's like he's arguing with me about something because he I want that food you know I wanted that but you know just like you were saying that comparison with dogs and children and humans that we have some dogs who get a bad rap Katrina: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. you Tanya Franklin: of being aggressive and barking incessantly just like we get some humans that get a bad rep for being aggressive ⁓ and yelling incessantly. So, but I have one last question just for fun. So if you were a dog, what breed would you be and why? Katrina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. I will be a poodle. I would be a poodle. The reason why I would be a poodle is because their attention span around everyone, especially with children. They are very protective with children and they're fun. Their hair, you put like little bows on them. You can't put barrettes on them, but you put like little bows on them, little collars. So we used to watch the 101 Dalmatians and it was always the little Dalmatians, but they had their little one. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Katrina: where she would strut her stuff in the movie. And that was my favorite dog. My mom had a white pool, her name was Jasmine. And we were like, ⁓ my God, hate Jasmine. And she was so fun. She loved that dog. She had like these little pink collars and stuff for her little bows. And when she would go to the pet's market to get cleaned up, she would just step and whatnot. I remember my mom had the dog's hands, her little toes painted and whatnot. Tanya Franklin: Hahaha ⁓ Katrina: She was cute. So it was normally like a family dog. me personally, that's who I would be. I've had my fair share of dogs. I've had some pit bulls. I now have a Shih Tzu, Iggy. So we have our little boy, Iggy. And he's right along with the other two playing around. So yeah, if I had Jasmine or another poodle, that's who I would be. And that's who I would like to have as another dog. Tanya Franklin: Mm-hmm. Aww. Hehehehehe Yeah, I definitely love Zack. I mean, you know, got your standard miniature and Zack is a toy poodle, but ⁓ yeah, I love them all. Now I know we don't get to see each other as often, but I'm still going to ask you what dog breed do you think I would be in? Katrina: Yes. ⁓ Hmm. I'm not going to say a cocker spaniel. I'm not going to say that. Um. Hmm. Tanya Franklin: haha Katrina: it back with that one. I got my fair share ones but not the ones that kind of like fishy. Tanya Franklin: Cool! Mm-hmm, and it's funny because a lot of previous guests actually said a poodle for me So when you said a poodle for yourself, they either said a poodle or a golden retriever. So Which I like go to retrievers. So yeah, they said cuz they're really friendly with everybody. So I said, I like that. Yeah Katrina: ⁓ okay. Yeah. Yeah, but I would say like a, like a small, like a puppy because you don't like, that's why I'm saying, I can't say like a physical, a physical one, but I would say like a new breeder because you're innocent, you know? And by you being so innocent, if you were just born, you're so innocent to the world. You know, you're with your mom. Tanya Franklin: Yeah. ⁓ Mm. Katrina: And your mom, you know, she's breastfeeding and you're like running around with your mom with all your other siblings. So I would say you will be a newborn to a breed. To which breed? I'm not sure, but I would say that. Sure. Tanya Franklin: Aww. Mm-hmm. that I like that. Well thank you so much for joining me Trina this was awesome I'm so glad we got to get together in this way and I hope none of my questions came across as me barking orders I had to throw that pun in there. Katrina: Sure. ⁓ no. ⁓ no, I'm the one that's those orders to my kids all the time. Tanya Franklin: Hehehehe ⁓ But to you the listener I hope our conversation has you thinking about when and if you should react to the barks of others and Now I'm not barking orders at you as the listener But I do hope that you will share this episode with your friends and family and while you're at it You know follow me on Instagram Facebook tick tock and YouTube at tricks my dog taught me Katrina: on the website. Tanya Franklin: Until next time, when I get into Week 14's poem, A Little Tug, here's something to ponder inspired by my little guy, Zach the Toy Poodle. Some barks come from buddies, while others hail from rivals. Yet remember, not every bark is a battle cry. So take a moment before you unleash your own. Take care and I'll see you next time.