Emily Haruko: What's up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of Saroca Speaks. am your host, Emily Haruko and I'm joined today by my beautiful co-host.

Claire Adamou: It's Claire!

Emily Haruko: And we are so excited to welcome back for the second time on the show, Mr. Adam Quiney.

Adam Quiney: Mmm, I like the title.

Emily Haruko: ⁓ I it. Monsieur Today, we have very special episode for you today as we continue on with educating our audience on the Saroca Index, we bring to you the pillar of resilience. So Adam is here to help us dive into resilience, all the things that it is. It is not what the shadow side of it is, how it relates to our

Adam Quiney: Yes. Yeah, was very, feel 12 once again. ⁓

Claire Adamou: you

Emily Haruko: wellbeing, our personal lives, of course, corporate and business optimization, health, and ⁓ in of itself. So ⁓ welcome, welcome back. It's really nice to have you here again.

Adam Quiney: Hello, great to be back.

Emily Haruko: why don't we dive in and let's, you you and I had an interesting conversation leading up to this podcast, a little bit around what resilience is and what it isn't when I share the topic with you and I'm wondering if you can enlighten our audience on a little bit of maybe what the alternative thinking around resilience is as opposed to just like, resilience means we feel good.

Adam Quiney: Yeah. Well, do we, does the audience have a clear, of what it is before we provide that counterpoint?

Emily Haruko: Well, we can define it as it occurs to all of us. So why don't we start there then? What does resilience mean to you?

Adam Quiney: Yeah, let's do it. would define resilience kind of like, I think the common word life heard a lot lately is like grit, sort of the ability to, stand in the face of the ability to be, maybe confronted, maybe, worked over by the moment or the circumstances or whatever is going and to kind of, maintain a sense of where we stand in all of that, like the sense of self to be able stand in the face of the wind or the storm. And I've heard the word used in the sense ⁓ of be able to return to our previous state so we can get like kind of blown out or muddled around whatever happens to be and then to come back to where we were when we started. So that's sort of like the common definition I've been hearing.

Emily Haruko: Well, okay, what is your definition?

Adam Quiney: think that'll probably come forward as we talk more. Like, I don't have a working definition ⁓ much ⁓ you know, that's where I'd start from. And I think it'll start to broaden as we explore some of these other parts. But that's good enough for us to go like to build on for now.

Emily Haruko: Okay, Claire, what does resilience mean to you?

Claire Adamou: Resilience to me is my ability or anybody's ability to bounce back. So no matter what is happening to you or around you, ⁓ do we work through that and keep coming back? And I'm not talking about, you know, abuse or anything. How do we bounce back from abuse? But it's how do we, how do we keep coming back fighting? How do we continue to show up? How do we use what happens to us? to help build our character, build our strength, build our courage and come back again. So that's what resilience is for me.

Emily Haruko: Beautiful. I might add that I think there is an act of resilience that is keeping stress and burnout at bay to a degree, particularly in the professional sense. There was a flavor of what you both said that I might articulate as the ability to continue to return home to yourself and home being an optimal state of wellbeing, clarity, health. in the face of adversity or challenge or all of the ways that this messed up world challenges us and puts, you know, fires our path, the ability to move through those in a sound, humane, and like nurturing is what I might add there. So we know with every side, with everything, there's a bit of a shadow side, you know, there is, as the pendulum swings, we might say, there is an optimal side of resilience and there may be a way that, you know, one or some relate to resilience through, again, we might say the shadow side of it. So Adam, you wanna take us into a little bit of, you know, what resilience isn't in terms of what we've just discussed, but how it might be. ⁓ such or essentially, what is the shadow side of it?

Adam Quiney: ⁓ construed. I love it. Yes. ⁓ First of all, think it's like, think it's super valuable for us to look down this pathway because A lot of times these ⁓ values or however people relate to them are sort of held out like purest highest form. Like if you are being resilient, amazing. ⁓ Or if have integrity, incredible. And what that does it pedestals this quality. And then once we pedestal the quality, we can't really look at it. miss out on a bunch of stuff. see everything that we don't want to see, or sorry, we miss everything that we don't want to see up on there with the pedestal. And so looking at it through this lens, I think is really valuable because not there is no such thing as, you know, pure objective. Like if you're this way, it's always great. There's shadows, like you said, to everything. So first part of the shadow is the one that I people are most familiar with when we talk about like resilience, which would be the lack of it or the under expression of resilience in someone. And so that would be where might see that show up in someone where the way they'd been raised was that standing firm in the midst of something was actually really unsafe and unsafe can be anywhere along the spectrum, right? It can be like unsafe physically, you know, there was actual danger present or it might just be unsafe. Like if you stood up, ⁓ that meant you got bullied more the next time. So better to collapse. That's safer. And so that's the form of kind of, would call it maybe like a lack of resilience or typically corporate settings, people would say, ⁓ they just don't have enough resilience. it's some, you know, they got many points put into the resilience box and they didn't get enough and that's too bad. And so the way this is often being blown out by feedback, ⁓ like having no to receive feedback, falling to pieces. is the kind of, let me see if I can get my hands around this and then y'all can check my feet and sort of, put in any ⁓ color that important, but this is type of this, this expression in world is the kind of thing that a lot of the backlash about a more sensitive way to lead is about. It's sort of like. why should I have to diminish the feedback I'm providing to this person? It's their lack of resilience that's the issue. so they should actually be increasing their resilience. ⁓ know, so we get into all of those sort of conversations around it. So that's what this side, this expressive side of resilience looks like. I'm just going to stop there and see where that leads us for now.

Emily Haruko: Yeah, so what I kind of heard in that in my own interpretation is like resilience is not the white knuckling through something. Resilience is not how much can you just grin, you know, bear down, grin and bear it. know, resilience in its most optimal state is like how we those things from like a humane, healthy, optimized way that is aligned and on purpose and human centered. What I'm hearing is like what if resilience is not is, you know, that kind of grinning and bearing it or the white knuckling is kind of what comes to mind. What did you hear, Claire?

Claire Adamou: Yeah, interesting, because I actually, in my head, I have a question about what you said. And when you were relating it to that corporate environment, right, and where sort of leadership tick boxes or keep score about how resilient people are. And I wonder can build their resilience in that environment, because especially when you touched on childhood, they take that step back because actually it's physically and psychologically safer for them to do that in those instances and it becomes learned behaviour. And then we that naturally, we bring learned behaviour from our childhood into who we are as adults and obviously that no longer or can no longer in certain situations serve us well in the corporate world. And so There's two elements for me. It's one that leaders need to recognise that see where they can support their staff. But I wonder as individuals, how much resilience we can learn as adults. Do you have any experience around that? It's just a thought that came up.

Adam Quiney: Yeah, I love it. I love that you took the thought in your head and you put it out your mouth. we get to talk. It's great. It's really, really juicy. Before we down that path, because I'm really excited about what you just shared, Claire, but to what you to Emily, I'm actually ⁓ distinguishing ⁓ something what pointed to. The second side of what resilience isn't is more along the lines of what you're talking about. White knuckling, like that sort of The first side I'm talking is the complete lack.

Claire Adamou: ⁓ I try.

Adam Quiney: of any ability to stand up. So these would be, you know, the way we would see this in a corporate setting is that person that is all too eager to receive any kind of feedback whatsoever. You're like, I got feedback and they're like, ⁓ my God, thank goodness. And they're nodding their head. They're like an eager puppy with feedback because there's zero ability to stand on their own two feet and sort of the feedback sit in the tension between, hmm, here's how I currently see myself in this feedback suggesting something different. And how do I navigate the tension that's caused? And it's in that tension that transformation and leadership and growth can happen. These people don't have that because there's no self that they can stand on. They're just blown over by it. So Yes, exactly. Like surrender, like complete. Just I give ⁓ you know, out of the gate. So that's the

Emily Haruko: There's probably some type of like unworthiness or you know, lack of confidence, lack of courage. And that's kind of, you know, a little bit of how I would how I'm seeing what you're saying.

Adam Quiney: like how it was created. Yes.

Emily Haruko: Yeah, and we're like, what some what the side of resilience that you're talking about, the that one who is not equipped would experience or is experiencing that domain. Got it.

Adam Quiney: Yes. So, so one thing I want to speak to on this, and then y'all just interrupt me if you're like, no, no, you're speaking too much is down this path, this, this type of of under of resilience in someone at first is super compelling often gets really approved of in teams because the way it shows up on the surface is an absolute willingness to take in feedback, which to a who's not particularly or who just has some capacity to grow in their own leadership is going to be like, awesome. This person takes all the feedback. Finally, someone on my team that listens. The trouble is that the feedback has nothing to really land or integrate with. It just kind of lands whole new. So it's like you're overwriting that person every time you give them new feedback and can't be any growth if we're overwriting something from, from cloth every time there's a new piece of feedback. So that's, that's a nuance to this part of resilience. this is like you described. It's the the way this sounds kind of in head is like, I'm never going to give up. So this is like grit on grit on grit. And this is usually created when quitting was sort of taught to us as weak or not an option or, maybe we grew up in hard circumstances and we were just unwilling to let those defeat us and we would do whatever it took no matter what all the time, constantly forever. And, you know, there's an admirability to this. Like all of these strategies, the problem is when they're always on, when they're automatic and we can't choose, it's great until we find the situation where it isn't great. And then ⁓ stuck because we can't choose anything different. And so the way this shows up is on steroids, no to surrender, no matter what the situation, we survive through it and we return back to our original state. And that's amazing when we're trying to retain our original state or maintain status quo. This sort of ⁓ shadow is really, really good at that. when what, what is asked of us ⁓ is that we beyond our existing capacity. That's where this blocks us, in an organization, in an individual, ⁓ we can't surrender anymore. We've lost that ability. And so we can't let go of what used to work in order to create what now will work next. We get locked into that, but I'm going to give up. And so we just keep hitting our head against that wall, unable to kind of soften and see, hey, what might actually be trying to come through here?

Emily Haruko: So what I love about that is that's why the Saroca Index is six pillars, because what you just described is how alignment comes into play with all of these pillars. So feedback resilience. So in a situation like you just described, would be questioning whether or not the individual is actually truly aligned with what their role is, are their values with their organization? Are they thriving predominantly, for the part, in their day to day with what their responsibilities are?

Adam Quiney: Mm.

Emily Haruko: And if the answer is no, then yes, we could potentially over index and like, I'm never gonna quit and like, I'm just gonna make it work. know, I'm just make it work. so that's where, you know, I find that this is, you know, the well, a well rounded optimized individual or organization is incorporating all of those things. And I think you really spoke to that alignment piece brilliantly there.

Adam Quiney: Yes. one of the things to that part about the Saroca index is that an indexing, know, the resilience steroid side of this, the over polarized version of this actually can make it hard for an individual to your point to kind of soften and say like, the issue here is I'm out of alignment. But because they're so like, reliable to just charge headfirst through whatever shows up, they can't see that. so, yeah, yeah, really love the way you worded that.

Emily Haruko: Well, and I think eventually that is not sustainable, right? It might be sustained for a significant period of time. You could do that for 10, 15 years, but eventually, you know, those walls are gonna come crashing down and that alignment or lack of alignment is really gonna come rearing its head in my experience.

Adam Quiney: Yeah, it's kind of like diminishing returns, I find, is that they can create results up to a certain point, but then and then what we see in the world is there's a new technology, there's a shift in the market, the economy changes, or there's just changes in our lives, ⁓ we can't anything new, and we're left trying to create more of old results from the old ways, and eventually, you know, we just kind of become irrelevant.

Claire Adamou: it

Emily Haruko: I was thinking when you were sharing a little bit about, if you didn't listen to our previous episode with Adam, Adam is a former coach of mine. And you took me on this journey once through what is my survival mechanisms versus what is my essence. And I know that that's an Accomplishment Coaching tool that you provide for your clients. And I'm wondering a little bit about, let's talk about if part of my essence is resilience, right? Part of my essence is the ability to brilliantly continue to come home to myself, to strive for what is in alignment for me, for what is on purpose. Tell a little bit of the ways where you think the survival mechanism shows up in the face of that that we haven't already touched on.

Adam Quiney: so, yeah, the way a shadow looks, we start with this light, you know, like resilience or alignment or, know, we could name any number of things. And then there's our fear tends to polarize us. So it either polarizes us to the under-expression of something or the over-expression, the atrophy of that particular muscle or the steroidal hypertrophy of that particular muscle. And neither of those are particularly helpful. And so with resilience, there's a piece I want to touch on, which Claire mentioned, which I really loved here, which is this idea. I think a lot of people relate to resilience as a set quality in an individual. And so they hire someone, they're like, ⁓ yeah, this person's really great. They're really resilient as a leader, is awesome when you're high on ⁓ when you're very in that. But some leaders are amazing at a bunch of things and they just, resilience is the place that they're not yet developed. And if we start to relate to people as, this person has not yet been developed to... to be able to hold resilience and to stand, like that's just what there is to develop in their leadership. That becomes a different conversation than the one that sounds like, we hired the wrong person. They're not resilient enough. Because sooner or later, ⁓ to come up against everyone's edge current development and capacity. And then, and then the conversation we get into when we're not looking through a developmental lens. So you want me to elaborate more now on that or,

Claire Adamou: Yes, yes.

Emily Haruko: wanna know how do we develop, I'm gonna ask both of you, how do we develop resilience? How do we develop it? How is that something that, how would you do that? If somebody came to you and was like, I lay down at every piece of feedback, I quit whenever things get hard, I have zero belief in myself when challenges arise, help me with this, where would you start?

Adam Quiney: Yeah, Claire.

Claire Adamou: Well, those examples, ⁓ me, are almost different things that they need to work on in order to build their resilience. It their confidence, right, and their ability to speak up and say when they're struggling or when they need something. And it's having the courage to admit when something may be not going their way or they don't understand it or they're unable to take. whatever they're doing to the next level. Or perhaps they have an issue with delegating, which was one of the things that you were just talking about, Adam, in terms of like, how do you move forward if you're just constantly saying yes, how are you enabled to new things or look at new technologies or do a new strategy for the business, right? We need to pivot the business because the market's changed or we've just lost our biggest client. And then there was one that you mentioned that made me think about psychologically, being psychologically safe within your environment. if you don't have that from a leader, no matter where in the seniority level you are, even the CEOs can report to the board, right? So where you are in that ⁓ I like if you are not psychologically safe, you're unable to communicate effectively. And therefore, those are the things I think that you need in order to build that resilience. Because without those, without the confidence, without that being psychologically safe, having that environment that you can speak up and say what is needed to have that safety space, safe space to analyze, right? What am I doing that I'm great at? And what am I just a hamster on a wheel churning things out? mediocre. churning out, but I don't enjoy it. I don't want to do it. You know, it's not my passion of mine. I feel once you can get a handle of that or communicate that, that's where that resilience starts to grow, in my opinion.

Emily Haruko: So I'm hearing resilience is actually a byproduct a number of different things. ⁓

Claire Adamou: Yeah, yeah, I think so. Adam.

Emily Haruko: Adam, what would you say around someone that wants to develop their resilience? How would you develop resilience?

Adam Quiney: Well, I already loved Claire's answer and I really agree like... All of this has to in an environment that nurtures growth, first of all. Like if we don't have that, it's just vegetables a ⁓ valley that's from wind and that's gonna bring water in and the water actually sit, it's gonna be much easier than doing the exact same technique in a wide open that's blasted with wind and that the water doesn't tend to penetrate as much. So setting the conditions is very important. And two, I think maybe three, we'll see, but at least two things I can see are first of all that most leaders, they to people through that way I initially talked about, which is the level resilience you bring to the table is kind of set plus or minus five, whatever units of resilience we wanna have. Like this person's resilience is, x plus or minus five and I can develop them plus or minus five but that's it the point is to really get that resilience I would argue is a human capacity we all have we're just trained in it a particular way from our upbringing and then we take that training into the world the world rewards ⁓ what are bringing forward and that reinforces it so the leaders that we're to develop a greater amount of resilience first of all they don't see it in themselves And the fact is, most leaders don't either. So then you have someone that's trying to chain someone, but they're kind of like, yeah, see if I can get five more resilience points out of this lunkhead. But you know, ⁓ we'll do my best. And that's not a very empowering experience for anyone involved. Whereas this if we as a leader can actually see, This person has plenty of resilience. They've just been trained by life and the world and probably subsequent jobs and everything to actually diminish that in themselves. They've been trained to do that a particular way. If you develop that kind of seeing in someone, they're gonna relate to the person radically different and that's gonna enable radically different results. So that's point number one. And then I've got a second part if you'd like me to go into that. Yeah, cool.

Emily Haruko: for.

Adam Quiney: Part two is that the nice thing about our shadows that they feel crappy because we're holding ourselves in a posture energetically that is unnatural. Sort of like if I try to walk around on all fours, that's feel crappy because it's not how my body is designed to walk around. I'm designed to be bipedal. And so someone is doing, you know, that version of like, let's say being under resilient, they're blown over by feedback. You can't tell them anything. Everyone walks on eggshells around them because you just don't want to have to manage, you you don't want to have to deal with that. an experience about that that this person doesn't like. And shows for the person in question and it shows up for us. ⁓ And that's way in is we can start to meet that person and be like, hey, there's something that I'm noticing in your leadership that I'd love to develop with you. I'd love to partner with you to develop that. And it's that notice When you get feedback, you sort of like immediately collapse and just the feedback becomes the new version of you. it seems like something's getting missed there. How is that for you? And we can start to explore that sensation that's happening to them when they do that. And that's gonna give them and the leader developing them an access point, like a felt experience that we can begin to build, grow, and from there start to develop them in all the ways that Claire mentioned. Well, I got a simultaneous. was a good sign. ⁓

Claire Adamou: And I think.

Emily Haruko: Mmm.

Claire Adamou: No, the brain was ticking. No, for me, the brain was ticking and I was thinking about, you know, as a leader, as a coach, and I've run teams before and it is being a leader is an incredibly hard job, right? Because you're leading yourself, you're doing the business objectives you're leading a team of one more. Sometimes people huge teams that they're responsible for and it is understanding those nuances of

Adam Quiney: Mm-hmm.

Claire Adamou: every individual person and what works for someone doesn't work for somebody else. And it is having that time and patience and understanding of how everything is landing, right? Or that feedback is landing. And sometimes it is, I feel like, you know, it's asking the right questions sometimes of individuals to get the right answers. And I think sometimes people are not very Well, a lot of times when someone wants to, when it's a negative situation or they don't understand something, they're not forthcoming with that, right? They don't want to admit that there's a weakness that they have in the business or, know, when you dig into why that is and you understand, like, it could just even be over a coffee. ⁓ have you got any siblings? How are your parents? You know, and you just get to know a little bit more about their, I feel like their upbringing or their previous jobs or their home life. And when When you get to see a bigger picture of who they are, think that's how you understand more about where they're coming from, that it naturally comes out. You're creating that sort of more personal impact. And I know it's hard in the workplace, but I do think that you have dig a little bit deeper as a leader when you've got somebody that's not. There's either taking everything and it's flooring them like you're saying, they're completely like, I'm just not interested in any of this feedback. There's nothing wrong with me. It's a you problem. You know, I feel like sometimes we have to dig in just a little bit as a leader to really understand how can I make this land better? How can I explain it in a different way? How can I deliver it in a different way? And are the things that I look for as well, because it really resonates what you're saying. But those are the things that I try. when I'm leading others when I see people struggling in ⁓ of my coaching sessions as well, try and dig a little bit deeper into that.

Emily Haruko: I'm hearing that like optimal leadership or what I might say, transformational leadership is resilience. Cause it is therefore creating that environment where you can meet the person where they're at, you know, with some empathy, with a possibility for how they may grow or improve in the future. And I guess, you know, looking at it through an ontological lens and Adam, I'll toss this one over to you. what you mentioned, what you alluded to earlier and what I'll just articulate is like the way that we relate to people often ⁓ if completely shapes our experience of them. There's the that I love around like already listening. ⁓ I don't that I brought this one in. But already listening is like,

Adam Quiney: Mm.

Emily Haruko: Jack sits at the cubicle next to me and Jack's just kind of a jerk and Jack's always talking really loud on the phone and he's always dominating the space and he spilled my, you know, coffee on my keyboard last week and I just start to relate to Jack like a jerk and when I relate to Jack like a jerk, doesn't matter how Jack shows up, I'm now already affiliating him with being a jerk. that it can be some random Thursday, I could have not had any interactions with him for four days, but I'm already showing up with a mindset and the attitude that he's a jerk, guess how Jack's gonna show up for me, right? So I think the same thing happens when we are in optimized leadership, when we are cultivating transformation with the people around us and on our teams, we are responsible for how we relate to others shapes our experience of them. Anything you wanna add there, Adam?

Adam Quiney: Hahaha. Yeah, I love that friggin Jack too. I mean, come on, get your act together, buddy. Spillin' soup. Anyhow, it gets always Reggie is the bonehead for me. But anyhow, yeah, the one that I think is really valuable for leaders to understand is that of us, no one is like resilient right in the middle. I nailed it. We'd love to believe that. I would love to believe that about me. But the truth is ⁓ we all shadows. These shadows are whether we like them or not.

Emily Haruko: No, right? Sorry if your name's Jack. Please forgive me.

Adam Quiney: the more we can make peace with the fact that they're there, the easier it is for us to see them, blah, blah. But thing to consider is that we tend to index either on one side or the other for any particular quality can choose. So since we're working with resilience, maybe we a team of people and the leader is like hardcore hypertrophy, overexpressed resilience. Nothing, we won't at nothing. We will never quit. We will work 24 hour days, blah, blah, blah. those people are going to have an especially strong judgment towards people that are on the other pole of resilience. the other thing about this is ⁓ six particular qualities in the pillars, right? ⁓ it would be great for this leader if most of the people coming through the door had like kind of their their happened in other pillars.

Emily Haruko: So yeah, you

Adam Quiney: but more likely they're gonna end up because of the way the world kinda tends to work. They're gonna draw people to them and onto their teams have a breakdown, a dysregulation and resilience. And often those people are gonna be on the other side. And those are the people for which the leader will have zero patience, zero tolerance. my God, look how weak they are. Sometimes people just need a swift kick up the ass as my dad would often tell me. No, dad, I did not need that. Thank you. he'll listen to this. I'll send it him afterwards. So what happens that those those leaders are especially challenged by people that under on the other side. And the really the thing that's really interesting to me is it's the same breakthrough. They're both learning how to to regulate and sit in a new of of resilience in this instance. ⁓ They're just coming at it from the side. And so the

Emily Haruko: Ha

Adam Quiney: Great irony of this for leaders listening is the people you tend to have the most judgment of are the people that are on the other side of your kind of equation. And they're the people that are going to represent the biggest breakthrough for your leadership for your teams because you're over correcting in the other direction unwittingly.

Claire Adamou: you.

Emily Haruko: say that to leaders that I work with when they're working with a, you know, a challenging report, direct report, is like, you know that this is exactly the experience that is cultivating who you are as a leader. Like, you know you don't get better at leadership by managing and leading, you know, the people that are easier or on board or optimized and on purpose, right? You know, the grist for the mill is, know, those that we experience the challenges with and therefore providing the opportunity to really refine and cultivate who we are as leaders.

Adam Quiney: Hahaha Ha ha. Hahaha. Mm-hmm.

Claire Adamou: That's life, isn't it? I think as well, it's leadership 100 % agree with you, but I think that throws at us things that are meant to challenge us and meant to push us ⁓ be the next version of who we are, right? Let's see if you can handle this. Let's see, ⁓ see how, know, how this builds your character, how this builds your resilience. I'm just going to throw these things at you and, in it's I'm going throw these people in your team and see it shapes your leadership and how you show up. ⁓ I think what's really important is as a leader, we have the ability to shape else's growth. We have the ability to to change the trajectory of their careers well. And it's so it can be empowering for leaders to come through that lens. job here is to do my job, but empower you and help you be the best employee and have best experience that you can within my team, within this company, within your career, you know, as long as I'm in your environment. And I think sometimes we forget as leaders, we have so much going on that we actually forget the impact that we have on the people around us.

Emily Haruko: I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's like the opportunity we have as leaders is to cultivate environments where people get to express who they are as brilliant and genius in the world. That is truly the opportunity that we have. And it's on us to cultivate our leadership skills, to be a situational leader. to do our own deep inner work, confront our own shadows, receive support in whatever capacities we need to that allow us to then cultivate and shape the environments where those on our team can truly access and practice who they are as brilliant and genius.

Adam Quiney: said.

Emily Haruko: Beautiful.

Adam Quiney: I just think it's super cool that one are having this conversation. Like wish more of conversation was happening. ⁓ I and know, it strikes me. I remember who said this. It's it's kind of like Internet business lore at this point. like Enron, the company had the word integrity written on its walls right up until the moment it was arrested, shut down, all of that stuff. But I really believe, you the the I think what most of us do with that is we're like, see, it's bullshit. There's nothing there. It's garbage. Throw it out. I think that value was probably legitimate when it was started, but because we're unwilling to consider that we have a shadow at play, we then can't do anything about it because we can't see it. And so I just really... I laud this conversation, I applaud it because it's so important. And to the extent leaders take this on and really consider like there might be a part here beyond just the glorification of this quality that is really worth looking at and really worth holding with a degree of reverence. I think that's incredible. And that's what I think allows us to avoid the Enron kind of situation.

Emily Haruko: Yeah, for me it's all about when we do work with organizations and individuals really about establishing what those values are, but making sure that we have leadership principles connected to them so we understand what that value in action actually looks like. And with that, we can create a higher level of accountability to make sure we're actually living our values.

Adam Quiney: Nice.

Emily Haruko: All right, well on that note, you all for joining us on this episode of Saroca Speaks. So grateful to you, Mr. Adam Quiney and the lovely Claire Adamou We appreciate you of our listeners and thank you both for being here today. And we're wishing you all well on your journey of resilience and optimizing your own leadership in the world. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next time.

Adam Quiney: you