Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Hello everybody and hello Tara McGowan. It is so nice to see you again. You are the on the leaderboard You're the leader of the people number people I've had on here The most time so you're at number three and I thank you so much for giving me the time of day I just feel like I don't know. I'm I I really really respect everything that

Tara: Hi, Stephanie.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: you do and the pace at which you do it. so thank you for your time.

Tara: You're very, very kind, Stephanie. It's always, it's always a pleasure. are way ahead of the curve with the name and tenor of this podcast. So from day one, when you first reached out to me, I was like, yes, freedom of fascism. How do you say no? So I'm very grateful for the work that you do and continuing these great conversations that are so necessary right now and keeping your community engaged. So happy to hear it.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Yeah, it's, ⁓ and you know, community is so important. And that's one of the things that I am trying to do more of, you know. I feel like there's plenty of people out there doing breaking news and they're doing great job. I mean, on sub stack, not we could talk about the legacy media, ⁓ which, know, but ⁓ there aren't that many of us doing context and like you are with gloves off. And I think that it's a, that's a great podcast. So you guys should go sign up for gloves off on YouTube.

Tara: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the world. ⁓ wherever you get your podcasts.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: or wherever you get your podcasts, but you can watch it on YouTube. so the last time we talked was about a year ago, right after the election results had sunk in. ⁓ And ⁓ it's worse than thought it would be. ⁓ So ⁓ I of want to talk to you today about ⁓ how the project of creating values-based media is going, but also about leadership in this time and what we can be doing and what we should expect our leaders to be doing to ⁓ really be in opposition in an effective way. So I guess the first question is, it's how like, okay, we have just seen the complete, I mean, we knew it was bad shape before the legacy media, but now it's in the hands of just a few. So what are your thoughts on how Courier and other kinds of outlets are doing to really educate folks on what's going on in the world and in the United States.

Tara: Yeah I mean let's be like really clear and explicit about it. There's essentially independent media right now in the country and then there is media that is completely locked arms in bed with ⁓ corrupted ⁓ complicit with the administration. And so it's incredibly scary that you what mass media looks like today, right? It used to be like a few legacy outlets, broadcast channels, right? That sort of were the storied publications people went to for their source of news and information. Mass media today, the media that reaches the most of the public here and around the world is driven by the platforms themselves, right? The distribution platforms. ⁓ practically every single one of those mass media distribution platforms is owned and run by individuals who were seated on the dais at Trump's inauguration and are very much towing the line of this administration, taking orders from the administration, cutting deals to protect their businesses, their corporate interests, and their corporate shareholders. And that's not even talking about what's been done to CBS News, the acquisition of TikTok by the Ellisons, who now also own CBS News and now as of this week are very, very likely to also purchase Warner Brothers that own CNN and HBO and others. So ⁓ the consolidation has happened incredibly quickly.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: in.

Tara: ⁓ It is the consolidation is happening by folks who are aligned with this administration and the right whether they share political belief systems with them or not It does not matter because their ideology is clearly about profit and profit only And that is the language that this administration speaks because they are completely corrupt and have created a pay-to-play system. So the only ⁓ Really really intrepid gumshoe and accountability reporting that is happening, ⁓ at least where it is being initiated, is in independent media. It is by independent ⁓ reporters and journalists who have left legacy and other larger outlets and have broken out on their own. ⁓ It's being seeded and broken by networks like Courier and others that are in sort of this big and messy but beautiful pro-democracy media ecosystem that is growing by the day.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Tara: ⁓ And a good example of that is ⁓ a few weeks ago, one of our ⁓ amazing correspondencing contributors, Nina Burley, initially broke the story related to the Epstein files about the missing files, all corresponded to the quote unquote protect source woman who made the accusation of Trump sexually assaulting her. ⁓ Another independent journalist picked up on Nina's reporting, added to it and has gotten a lot of credit. ⁓ It did not, this story did not hit the mainstream until NPR reported on it independently over a week after Nina and Roger ⁓ did, Roger Sullenberger, the other independent journalist. And then quickly after NPR reported on it, we saw New York Times, we saw Wall Street Journal, et cetera. So it's not that they're completely sitting on the sidelines, legacy outlets. They are not investing in actual accountability or investigative journalism. They are waiting until there is pressure. ⁓ Essentially because stories are being broken by independent outlets and journalists and then they pick up on them ⁓ and increase their reach and visibility. That's a fast and really, really massive and dangerous transition that's occurred. Independent media has always been critical and important. ⁓ Today without it, there would be, I don't think any accountability journalism on this administration. Right now, and there is such a lack of it still. ⁓ Career is growing, but we are still ⁓ small in certain ways. And we are really, really focused on our local news network and local reporting because we know local journalism does not get very many plays. So the fact that we're able to, with our amazing reporters, break some really big national stories is punching above our weight in a way that now we understand there's just a heightened responsibility to do. And something else I'd say about that is that there are not corporate shareholders that are making money off of this business to the degree that news makes business. doesn't. News does not make money today. So even the folks that are buying these up, they're buying them up for political and other interests, not because they are going to be profitable products or brands. so that's right. That's right. And so just like your Substack and your podcast and Courier, which is a vast and growing ⁓

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right, I'll be profitable in other ways for other reasons.

Tara: Media network and we do have really wealthy wonderful altruistic backers. It's not enough increasingly all independent journalism is relying on the grassroots support of people who want to make sure there is accountability And and good quality factual reporting holding folks accountable when we're watching these major ⁓ corporate ⁓ Owned outlets and platforms just completely do the bidding of this incredibly corrupt administration So that was the other point I think is really important to make for the audience is that independent journalism exists because of folks that are listening to things like your podcast in mind and will continue to and we just we need people to under to really really double down on that so this work can continue and to support every creator and Independent journalists that that that they believe is doing good work because that's how we're going to keep having ⁓ journalism that can keep this administration on the defense where we need them.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Well, absolutely. And this community also includes some of the people doing some of that work on the sub-sac side, like Ellie Leonard, who was going to be on tomorrow, but she's sick. So I'm really sorry. It's going to be next week. ⁓ And as you said, it's growing by the day, and it's supported by the grassroots, and it's becoming a real community. ⁓ a real life community, even you, you co-sponsored that state of the swamp event with a whole bunch of creators, you know, against opposite state of the union. And, but I think that there's also a problem with that because everybody here in the chat or who will listen later, I'm sure. they're tapped out because everybody needs a subscription, right? I even have to go through and like, okay, well, I'm paying these guys. Do I need to pay them anymore? Can I pay these other guys? You know, like it's even if you stop, you know, subscribing to the big ⁓ news sources, it's hard and on the creator side, you know. ⁓ people need support and it depends, you know, I wasn't actually planning on going here, but small create, there's, you know, the big, the Jim Acosta's, the Don Lemon's, the, and then there's, you know, the level down, the Joe Walsh's and the Lev Parnas and the, and then, you know, I'm sort of at the fringes of that group, but it's really hard to keep producing content. without income. And there's only so much of that to go around. So the way we're going to do this is through community, is through being actually connected to each other. ⁓ so, you know, I think that that's a whole different, it's an entirely different model than we've ever had.

Tara: turn.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: before there's been independent media. You guys have been around in the Watt for a long time, but I think there's a lot of us out here that only are depending on independent media now because none of the rest didn't really be trusted. mean, the Post and the Times after NPR picked up your reporting and Allie's reporting, they get there eventually, maybe, but ⁓ Oftentimes not and when I talk to people out in the real world and you know, I follow Everything all the debt, you know every day all the things and it is amazing to me how many people Just have absolutely no idea What's going on? Especially out here. I mean, I'm Minnesota not in Minnesota. Thank Goodness, I friends in Minnesota, but I'm in Massachusetts. So ⁓ It's a different reality here than it is in a lot of places around the country. And it's easy to sort of get wrapped up in, especially if you have a lot of privilege in just living, in day-to-day living.

Tara: No, that's right. And also we run the risk of, you know, always talking to ourselves. I mean, that's obviously something that's very core to Kerr's model from day one was that we did not want to talk to an already very actively engaged audience that proactively informs themselves, you know, consumes a lot of news and political information. ⁓ That's not how, right? Those are not the audiences, unfortunately, that that that win us elections, right? Or actually drive folks over the finish line in very close competitive races and things of that nature. It's the folks who are not as tuned in because they have multiple jobs, they have lives. They also just can't and don't wanna handle it. I envy these folks, right? Like you and I were talking before we went live where it's like, you got it. You have to put your oxygen mask on first. You have to be able to take breaks. The burnout fear and threat is really real in this line of work. And the stakes feel higher every single day. And that's not just true for those of us who have made this our life's work and our career on top of something we feel passionately about personally. But it's also true of people that are just trying to stay informed and engaged because they're good and alarmed citizens, right? Who hate what they're seeing happen to our country. ⁓ It is, you know, the inundation is part of the strategy is to wear us all out. So we are more tuned out, more apathetic, more cynical. And so that balancing act is a daily struggle for all of us. So from everything to the financial resourcing of this work, to just the attention share and being able to build audiences. And I do think community is often the solution in whatever form that makes is supporting one another. in the ways that we can, lifting up the good work. I also think we're still in the decentralization chapter of ⁓ this sort of new media ecosystem that we're in. Inevitably, that always then leads to a consolidation ⁓ era or chapter after that where bigger brands and networks like Courier as we've designed it can pick up more creators and reporters to... help them ⁓ grow even more with our platforms and things of that nature. So folks aren't all just doing this work on islands. It's just not sustainable. ⁓ So I think that's a large part of our vision. And I know Midas does the same thing in Bulwark, right? It's like, do you really build a trusted audience and then continue to add to it with more voices, more beats, more beat reporters, more analysis? ⁓ so we are really building the new version of what large media is, but in a way that is, ⁓ independent and sustainable from diversified revenue, but it's all really hard. and, and I think it always has been for independent journalism. It's just that now we're in, ⁓ a position that this country has not been in, in a very, very, very long time and certainly never in this iteration with the, where technology is today and how fast it moves and fast communication moves where, ⁓ we, really are, we are under a government regime that is purely gonna be pushing out lies and propaganda and has been ⁓ day after day and is suing anybody or bribing them in other ways to get them to not do this. So it is as dark a period as we often talk about now. ⁓ The ability to keep good information moving wherever and whenever it can. ⁓ is I think the most essential task before us and everybody has a role to play in that by sharing that information and content supporting the creators and reporters ⁓ and and also just making sure that that's like that's you know, That's the information that they're passing around verbally or socially or through their emails ⁓ So these so folks can get bigger bigger audiences to attract advertisers other things of that nature. It's not easy, but it's necessary ⁓ ⁓ And I think it's a civic duty now that's gaining more prominence than we've had to worry about in the past because much more information was free, right? It's just, it's not any longer and that requires new muscles that we have to build to be able to keep good information flowing, especially to audiences who won't or can't afford to pay for sub-stack donations or paywall products where a lot of good information's trapped.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right. Yeah, I don't believe for me, I don't pay well anything because I think that whatever I and my guests have to say should be shared as widely as possible. But that puts pressure on, you know, the the people who are paying for things that they need to pay for to see as opposed to what they can get for free. ⁓ One of the things we talked about at the beginning before we came on live is that how hard it is to get beyond the breaking news of the day. And when so much breaks, obviously it's a strategy, it's a thief strategy. And I actually want to talk a little bit about what you're focusing on with gloves off, which is leadership and how, you know, we've got this grassroots leadership that's big and growing. We've ⁓ and connecting more. ⁓ But we have these elected national and we have a lot of great local and state leaders out there. And there's some. you know, big primaries today. ⁓ And I would love to get what you think is going to happen with ⁓ Jasmine Crockett, she was your first guest. I watched that.

Tara: I did, for the record, I invited James at the same time. His team went back and forth on many threads and ultimately dropped the thread on scheduling. So I did want to have both of, I do think they both exemplify gloves off leadership in different ways. But James never made it on the show. So I was like, that's his loss. But it was not a, it was not a subtle endorsement of Jasmine by any leaders.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Yeah. Do you have any thoughts on what you think is going to happen? Or you're like waiting to see like.

Tara: You know, I don't know, but I'm so excited. just saw some data this morning about how ⁓ Democratic primary voters have turned out in larger numbers than Republican primary voters for the first time ⁓ in decades and decades. This was always what made me so excited about both James and Jasmine being in this race. Texas is more than anything. It is not a Republican state. It is a non-voting state. ⁓ It is, and that is by design, the Republican-led legislature in that state has done everything in their power to make voting harder and more difficult, especially for young people in communities of color. They don't allow voter registration drives on college campuses. don't, I mean, they do everything you could imagine, right? The playbook that now the president would like to see done writ large by nationalizing elections, which will not happen. ⁓ Has been done and tried and and succeeded in Texas and so what it requires for a Democrat to win statewide Which has not happened in Texas in a very long time is extraordinary historic unprecedented turnout ⁓ and that requires ⁓ Like that is why it is a very good signal to have two candidates that drive a lot of attention and enthusiasm to this race nationally and in state because those are the numbers I'm gonna care most about is how many new registrants registered to vote and voted in the Democratic primary. ⁓ And then the task of whoever wins tonight is gonna be bringing their opponent, their primary opponents, voters over into their camp ⁓ to create a much bigger, broader, diverse electorate for them, for the general, because it's not gonna be an easy task.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Tara: this has been a tough competitive primary, it's gonna be a much tougher general race. I think Republicans are scared. I think there's a lot of conventional wisdom being placed on why James quote unquote would be the better candidate to win. No one knows because no Democrat has won statewide. So, and I'm sorry, but we did run some very charismatic white male candidates in the past for statewide that fell short.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: No witness. Yes, we have.

Tara: So anyone who says that they have data to support why he would be a better general election candidate for Democrats than Jasmine is cherry picking ⁓ at best. ⁓ a lot of other potential things that they could be pursuing in that allegation. I just don't think it's true. I have no idea and nobody does. ⁓ Know what's gonna happen. They both have different strengths and weaknesses But my hope is that they both bring new voters into this process and that those voters stick around because they know how high the stakes are regardless of which one wins and and that's why I think primaries are so important and and they will make both of those candidates stronger and both of them will be successful in what they do next, so ⁓ I really don't have a preference that's up

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Tara: for to the Democratic primary voters in Texas to decide today, but I'm excited for whichever one ⁓ comes through and to figure out how folks can support them ⁓ in beating Republicans for the first time, because that will be historic. We Democrats turn Texas blue, we can turn the whole country blue. Like it takes away their biggest electoral weapon and machine is statewide Texas electoral votes.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: access. It does. ⁓ One thing though that, mean, elections won't be nationalized. It's just not a thing that can be done. But I worry about how much voter suppression can happen in the cities in particular where most of the Democrats are ⁓ grouped. And I worry about ⁓ what will be done to stop the peaceful transfer of power. And I want to talk to you about this. I saw you had Demetri Malhorn on as did I. got it right. You had him on, right? ⁓

Tara: not had to, know, he is a very, very, very good ⁓ friend and mentor and investor. No, he's not been on Gloves Off yet, but I did see that he was on ⁓ he was on this show and I was delighted to see him. But yeah.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: ⁓ I thought you had. So I had them on. Yeah, so what he did, okay, so he's doing this whole gamifying of what could happen. But the main thing that he talks about is, you know, what is going to happen on January, whatever it is, the sixth of 2029. If Democrats managed to win an election, how will we force the peaceful transfer of power? Because the people in power right now aren't going easily. And I wonder if you have any thoughts on what we can be doing now to work on that, both for the midterms and for the presidential that's coming, you know, at the state level, mostly. gets transferred, although not always, as we've seen in North Carolina and other places. But what do you think we can be doing to help that along?

Tara: Yeah, I mean, I think it's about staying incredibly well informed, clear-eyed and vigilant. ⁓ I did not coin this term, so I will not take credit for it, but I have appreciated the stickiness of it where the midterms need to be too big to rig. ⁓ They do not have one specific strategy to be able to rig these elections. Republicans, including the president of the United States, no. that if there are free and fair elections that they do not meddle with, they will lose the House and very likely now the Senate. They also know that just by losing the House, impeachment proceedings will start on this president and other members of this administration who are complicit in the cover-up of unbelievably abhorrent, disgusting crimes at every level. They also know that they need the House in order to pass any budget or appropriations, not that they're paying much attention to Congress. but they lose a huge mantle in terms of federal power and accountability in terms of what the focus will be in the conversation in Washington. ⁓ Also, it is the House that certifies ⁓ the presidential elections, as we know. J.D. Vance said very explicitly when he was running, ⁓ for vice president ⁓ on Trump's ticket in the lead up to the 2024 election, that he would have done what Mike Pence did not. And he would have failed to certify the election results. So all of these things are connected. They know based on what we've seen in special elections and statewide elections in states like Virginia and New Jersey last year, ⁓ that this will be a tsunami for Democrats. And not because of anything Democrats have really done. but as a referendum to this really incredibly lawless and abusive and corrupt administration and the Republican party that is fully complicit and toeing the line of this administration. And so that is why they are attacking everything from vote by mail to the trying to pass the SAVE Act in Congress as it moves through, which would require every American to have either a passport or a birth certificate in order to register to vote in this country. The vast majority of Americans do not have either of those things. is not the case. No. So if you've changed your name in marriage or for other reasons, that is intentional to make it difficult. They want to make it difficult, if not impossible, to vote for as many people as possible. ⁓ We know that they are stealing voter rolls and records.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: I don't have a birth certificate.

Tara: from states like Georgia. They are tampering with this. They want voter data to be able to try to weave an incredibly false, inaccurate narrative ⁓ about fraud in elections, especially among undocumented Americans, where the evidence just doesn't exist. ⁓ So there's a few things that have to happen. We need massive, massive turnout. We're already seeing that. We need more emphasis on it. We need folks that always volunteer, that always write postcards or show up and join canvases or knock on doors. We need them to be going to the races that maybe the Democratic Party is not suggesting. We need folks to spread themselves out. We don't want concentration in just the most competitive districts or Senate races. They will have enough resources and support. We want folks to be in some of the under radar races. We want them to think creatively about where they can be to be poll watchers. There will be huge movements and onboarding campaigns for that. We just need everybody to not bite the, to not take the bait that they are gonna put out to try to fear monger, ⁓ especially with ICE deployments around polls as they've been considering. They are losing the redistricting fight they thought they would win. There's also a mass exodus of Republicans in Congress right now. It's almost every day we want to retire.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: I said another one yesterday. Yeah.

Tara: Their numbers are not good, so they are panicking. It's why he's talking about nationalizing the election, which he can't do. It's why there was a leaked executive order that they have on the table that they, of course, have not signed yet, but suggesting that they will declare a state of emergency in this country to potentially ⁓ delay or cancel indefinitely the midterm elections. Nothing is a... Is beneath these people right and so we have to all be really clear and pre-bunk that let people know This is what they're planning because they're saying it explicitly So they can't spin the narrative ⁓ When they lose these elections by a landslide ⁓ And also we need to be really really lifting up the the stories and the voices of folks that are that are doing the work within their communities on this because I think that that's also really important is that people need to know that they are that the numbers are such that they are that people are showing enormous enthusiasm in spaces that they are like they they are on the defense in this they're not going to be able to figure it out and There needs to be and this is what Demetri is focused on but there needs to be and this is not a thing for everyone But there needs to be plans in place about what happens when they do do something like declare a state of emergency. Because we've not been in a situation like this, right? Where we're the ones talking about ⁓ overthrowing a ⁓ fascist regime in our government. ⁓ I hope it does not get to that point. But again, I don't think anything is beneath them. And I think that there is a way to corner them. And we have seen, sorry, when I was talking about lifting up voices of people. There are a lot of Republicans that have actually come out and said that there is no evidence of voter fraud that is legitimate. There are people that are towing the line of democracy and the constitution in the Republican Party. Those folks are heroes. They are patriots. That is actually what held the line and ensured a free and fair election outcome in 2020. It was Republicans in Georgia that would not take the president's bribe. to find more votes that didn't exist in his favor. These are the folks we need to look to in support ⁓ because they really are at the front lines of this. I believe it's the governor of, I wanna say it's Oklahoma or Kansas, I should know this, but who's the head of the National Governors Association who when Westmore was like disinvited. to the president's dinner for governors. He came out and said, absolutely not that none of us are going if a few folks are not gonna be invited. And he has been outspoken about the fact that the, I think he's supporting the Save Act in theory, but he was, I heard him on NPR the other day say explicitly that there is no evidence to back up this claim that there is widespread voter fraud. So folks like that are really powerful messengers in a way, sometimes folks like me and you aren't. to some of the more independent or less tuned in voters. So I think that's a critical piece of the puzzle.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Yeah, it is. mean, one of the things when we talk about we're talking to ourselves is we are building a choir to go out and talk to other people. But when they have folks who are also pro-democracy, I think it matters a lot and gives a permission structure for people to ⁓ change their affiliation.

Tara: And it was the Republican governor of Oklahoma. Just so I fact check myself there. So Oklahoma Governor Kevin Stitt. So I was just, I was happy to hear him say an honest factual thing.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Okay. Right? I mean, it's the it's kind of a problem when hearing a Republican say an honest factual thing is a huge deal. Although one of the things that you said is it's where it's true that we all need to get out and we need to we need to volunteer. We need to do all these things as the grassroots. How do we?

Tara: Outlier.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: get ourselves a party that's actually leading. ⁓ And not just, you I read an article this morning about how ⁓ many of the Democrats in Congress are actually not trying to stop the war. They just are, you know, giving, you know, process arguments. And so, and the party, the DNC ⁓ killed that post-mortem. What do we do about the fact that it doesn't, I know we don't have the votes to do any much, but it seems that people who have been elected have a bully pulpit that most of them aren't, a handful are using, but most of them aren't.

Tara: Yeah, I mean my clear position on this and it's a big reason I started gloves off was because I was like we have to start really commending the leadership that is leading right now and ⁓ and not creating any space for folks that are in positions of power leadership who are not actually doing their jobs that who are obfuscating the responsibility of their roles as elected officials democratically elected officials to represent their constituents in this country and it is I Something that I think is really exciting about the moment we're in right now is that there are so many establishment long serving and yes, also very old Democrats who are being challenged in primaries across this country. And I fully understand the school of thought that, you know, why should resources be going there when we could add more expand our map flip? You need to do both of those things because our current democratic Congress, the Democrats who are in Congress and in the Senate, especially in leadership, they are not up to the task of this moment. They maybe were up to the task of what it meant to be leaders in Congress when there was bipartisan brokering to be done. But these are not normal times. These are extraordinary times. They are dark times and they call for people. who are willing to take the gloves off and do the hard things. And that's really what I'm doing in gloves off is interviewing folks that I think are exemplifying the kind of leadership we need right now. ⁓ I think that folks that are waiting to do all of the things that they are going to do to contribute to getting as many folks persuaded and turned out to vote in the general election as possible, if you have some time on your hands now, pick a handful of primaries. Pick a handful of primaries that you can support. Add calls, small dollar donations, tell people about it in a state or a district that you know folks and that you live in. I think that it's just getting engaged right now in primaries is a really exciting thing. They're not all gonna be as big or on the radar as the Texas primary today, but there was a story I read this morning about how there are more contested sitting Democratic seats than ever before in congressional districts. ⁓ Those could be flipped very cheaply in primaries. And that would give us a new bench of leadership that we are so overdue and desperate for. And to your point about Democrats that ⁓ are hedging and hemming and hawing and not coming out against this incredibly illegal unconstitutional war that the president started in Iran,

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: not to mention ill-conceived and right.

Tara: You don't get to do you do not get to pick anything that this administration does and support it in these times. It this credits you immensely. And I say that about the passage, the voting for judges under this administration, this idea that there are some things that they're doing okay. It's like the senators that voted to confirm any of their appointments. As cabinet secretary, I was screaming about this and I was being called, you know, dramatic for it back at the very beginning of this second term of the ⁓ of President Trump. And yet now a lot of them have like come out and been like, ⁓ yeah, that was a mistake to like, you know, appoint or Kristi Noem or whatever it is. It's just insane. Like you're you know, you have their blood on your hands when you have supported that. And I think it's the same thing with the judicial nominees.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Kristi, no.

Tara: And that is, I'm sorry, but that is the role of the leaders of Hakeem, Jeffries and Chuck Schumer to keep their people in line. I don't think one single Democrat should have gone to the state of the union. That would have created a much bigger media story that would have pissed off the president as opposed to him having his pompous seat on the bully pulpit and chastising them from stage and them looking mad. I just, from an optic...

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: I agree.

Tara: perspective, which leads to attention and power. ⁓ There are things that I have just been so disappointed and dismayed about in terms of the Democrats that are in Congress. And I think that every single one of them that is not up to the task of what this moment requires deserves to lose their job if they won't retire on their own volition or take a page out of all of the Republicans in the House playbook and just get out. Go enjoy your grandkids.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right. But they won't. Because most of them are, I mean, that's, I was talking to Amanda Lippman and in her book, she was like, we need younger, you know, it's the boomers and the near boomers. And then the millennials and I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm Gen X, like, get screwed every time. And she's like, yep, sorry, you're screwed this time too. But these, the older folks, there are some great ones. There are Ed Markey is one of my guys and he's phenomenal.

Tara: Yeah. ⁓ it's just not a determining factor. It just unfortunately tends to be a pattern of folks hanging on too long who aren't effective. But there are certainly, I mean, Bernie Sanders, he's got more energy than half of the Democratic caucus in the Senate.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: too long. Right, exactly. But we do have a gerontocracy and we are going to need to turn it over. ⁓ I worry too that institutional Democrats aren't up to the task. And I think at the state level, and the local level, we're getting more, but it's going to take time to filter up. And it's going to take a democracy to be able to filter up as opposed to whatever we have now. ⁓

Tara: Right, we get to choose these folks. like, and to your local level, it's like, don't just focus on the the big races that make the headlines and drive a lot of the traction with the big audiences on social. We need to be thinking about every single seat. And if the person in those seats that we have the power to elect are really up to the task.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: So, ⁓ I've asked all these questions that I've already asked the questions I came up with. ⁓ Okay. I've asked a couple of people this one and I'm on the fence. So. Can we vote our way out of this? Or is it too late? I mean, it's necessary, but is it sufficient?

Tara: It's necessary and it's not sufficient, is my answer. ⁓ I believe that we all need to expand our toolkits and our understanding of what tools we have accessible to us. I think a big one is consumer power and economic boycott. We know that these folks and this administration, money talks more than anything else. We saw this with Disney and Paramount's reversal on Jimmy Kimmel with the uproar on that. We have seen the traction that the, you know, a banned episode of Stephen Colbert with James Tellerico got in terms of virality and views after the FCC threatened them to not publish that. Folks want freedom of speech in this country. They need to know the companies that are supporting and enabling the administration, especially ICE operations. And they need to make, it's when just regular American people understand the power they have with their wallets and how to use it and are willing to make some sacrifices in terms of convenience. I'm talking Amazon. I struggled with this one. I know everyone does and yet. that stuff matters equally. And so what we've even talked about internally at Courier as an advocacy news organization is how do we help educate our audiences and give them really meaningful actions to take that seem apolitical, right, but that are directly related to some of the atrocities or the things that they just fundamentally disagree with that are coming out of this administration ⁓ by impacting the businesses. Because who does Trump listen to? The business leaders that call him.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Thank right, the stock market and.

Tara: That is what he listens to. That's what he pays attention to. And so, yes, we need to make these elections too big to rig. We need to do everything in our power to have landslides in the most unpredictable places that we've ever seen at a local and district level, as well as statewide and... We need to know that that is not enough because we have to keep the pressure on the folks that do have a lot of power and shouldn't in this country because it was not democratically elected. And that is these corporate executives and shareholders that do have the ear and the bidding of this administration. So it's a both and and that's going to continue. We're to have to keep growing and diversifying our arsenal, our toolkit of what we need to do to do this, because ⁓ they are lawless, they are corrupt and they are evil.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Yes, they're completely, they don't care what the Constitution says. They don't care what the in the books say. yeah, ⁓ they're bribes. I mean, they're...

Tara: So, see later. And we cannot give them what they want, which is for us to be fearful, apathetic, cynical. Anytime you're feeling any of those things, be like, that is how I want, that's how Trump wants me to feel. So I am not going to feel that way. I am going to be brave. I am going to do more. I am going to step up. And I think we all saw that in Minneapolis. ⁓ We all saw that after Renee Good and Alex Prettys murders, that more people came out into the streets to protect their neighbors. More people signed up. ⁓ for trainings on how to observe ICE in their communities. That's what we have to keep doing is showing that we will not be afraid and we will not bow down to this corruption and then they can't win. was actually Kara Swisher said it on my podcast a few weeks ago. She was like, it never ends well for these guys. Like who knows how long it'll take. There'll be a lot of damage. There'll be a lot more destruction, but it never ends well. Like good will prevail, but we are the good. that have to prevail and we have to just remove them.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: I was actually surprised because she's usually not that optimistic. ⁓

Tara: No, she's actually quite, quite dry and dark usually. She was telling me on the podcast called Gloves Off, I started that I needed to not lose hope. And I was like, okay, Kara, let's go. So it's, it's, she's right. She's right. It doesn't end well for them.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Yeah. It doesn't. And I think what we don't have in the United States is a really good understanding of long timeframes. You know, there are some civilizations that think in much longer event horizons than us. And mostly we're thinking about the next 15 hours as opposed to 15 years or even, you know, decades. And I think that that's going to need to change. ⁓

Tara: Thank

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: And I think we need, you know, like we were caught so flat-footed by Project 2025, it's been in the freaking works for 50 years. I mean, it was ridiculous that we didn't know. And so I want us to be coming up with like a tricentennial plan for 2075. What do we want this country to be? And I worry that because of just the way we are as Americans and the short attention span and the

Tara: That's right.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: particularly shortest attention span of the Democratic Party that thinks in terms of cycles and not in terms of power building, that we're not going to get it. But I'm hoping that enough people who understand will come in. So Kara thinks that over time, these guys don't prevail. What's your thought on? I guess what's your theory of change? How is this gonna work in the longterm? Like you said all these things that we can be doing and all of those are true and all the things that we need to be communicating and all of those are true and what our democratic, our elected officials need to be doing. is there more that we, like, is there a plan that we should be? making as opposed to just like doing all the things all the time.

Tara: I love this question. It's also just such a difficult one to answer and ⁓ not make people feel a sense of despair that I can feel because I do not have a sense of despair. ⁓ I do carry enormous hope. I do believe though in some ways and actually, you know, the release of the very partial insufficient release of the Epstein files ⁓ has been a big driver of this realization for me though.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Yeah.

Tara: ⁓ The system is so broken in so many spaces in so many ways at so many ⁓ in so many layers and and I am someone who is of the belief that things and people and Systems have to hit a rock bottom to build something brand new and the band aiding that band aiding that we have seen the iterative ⁓ structural incremental ism and improvement of progressive is right when we have power, if we have power has been deeply insufficient. ⁓ I think the thing that the majority of Americans all share ⁓ and believe and are now ⁓ much more affirmed about is that the corruption is deeply systemic. It is not amongst one party or another and that that system was designed not to serve. the most of us, but the very, very, very tiny elite ⁓ audience. And that is so much more on the surface now, even though folks have always known it, that we need an entirely new system and we need a vision of that system for folks to grasp onto to get them through the dark times that we are in now and will continue to be in for at least a few years, if not longer. ⁓ And so I don't have that crystallized vision to share with people. I know that it won't be just one person, but it will take leadership that are willing to come out with that vision. I mean, I think what we saw with Zoran's incredible campaign was that he could stay focused on what mattered to New Yorkers and also be brave and bold in opposition and masterful power moves in dealing with the administration to protect New Yorkers. ⁓ From retribution from the president like that. I will always point out his incredible leadership I think he is a once-in-a-lifetime transformative leader and how he's handled himself But that can have a real ripple effect and they don't have to share the same policy solutions or ideals either But I do think that we have to be able to do both and we need to support leaders And lift up leaders who can do both as he exemplified right he had vision and solutions and he is delivered already in so many ways, but also was unapologetic, right, in his opposition ⁓ to this administration on a daily basis while being able to broker things like the release of somebody who was picked up by ICE in his city because he managed that relationship. like, leaders like him give me enormous hope because they are showing, not telling what is required in this moment and that can have a contagious effect that's needed. ⁓ I don't know what is going to happen. I am not Pollyanna about anything. I've always been deeply worried that they are not going to leave on their own volition, regardless of massive ⁓ election outcomes. And so what that requires of us is very difficult to talk about. ⁓ And it doesn't require it of everyone, but there needs to be a really, really formidable and effective opposition. ⁓ that gets them out and it's going to need leaders who are very brave and I don't think that we should be looking for those leaders in Congress today.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: think there's maybe a handful that are even thinking properly about that, but that's clearly not enough.

Tara: Yeah, and one of the things things are going to go back to some sense of how they used to be, I think are wildly out of touch. If you can't imagine a new system and how to get us from A to B, you're not going to be a leader in this next chapter. I just I think that's true. know, best case scenario is that we are able to win free and fair elections and have a massive tsunami in the House and be able to take back control of the purse and control of the investigative.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: .

Tara: ⁓ hearings and the conversation to a larger degree than we have now and ⁓ And yet and maybe that peels off some business leaders, right? Maybe they start to hedge a little bit more instead of being fully embedded with this administration But the way that they're operating is so lawless and so many folks have just absolutely joined that camp to protect themselves in their interest That is where my cynicism is is is that you know We won't be able to if we can't peel off some of the business community back that have been absolutely powers, if not ⁓ complicit allies to this administration, it's very difficult ⁓ to change the power dynamics ⁓ where this administration has essentially made our Congress impotent.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right, exactly. mean, ⁓ it's the most corrupted and the business leaders have figured out that, you know, just money. No. Right.

Tara: They're not going to get a better deal with Democrats in power. So why would they, right, hedge their bets if they're getting everything they want with this administration in power? That's what's really

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right. And everyone knows that just what this administration responds to is money, is money, particularly to Trump and his family and his besties. ⁓ well, I do think I say this, I've said this, you know, for the three years I've been doing this, but I still really believe it is that hope. Hope is an action verb. Like you don't have, you can't just sit here and be optimistic. You have to be like, hope is doing the work. And if you're not doing something, that's when you get the most, ⁓ you know, sad and listless. So you have to keep doing stuff in order to keep yourself from getting so hopeless.

Tara: celebrating the small wins because they do add up. It's not going to be one big win where suddenly we all take this massive collective exhale that like we saved the country and now we can go back to normal. That's not how it's going to work. So every little win matters because they build on each other and they keep us going and taking time away from the doom scrolling, taking time to celebrate all the things that we are fighting to protect. Those things are not just like talking points to feel good. Those are necessary.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: It's so great.

Tara: for us to stay in this work. Because I thought your point about the timeline and us conditioning ourselves to understand this will not be fast. This will not move at the pace of the news cycle is really important. We have to pace ourselves and know that ⁓ other countries that have faced challenges like this one, of which there are many throughout history, it was a long road, but they prevailed. we have to, you know, people have to tap in and tap out. I tap out, I tap you in. do, like, that's just necessary for this work.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right. And I think people need to choose Elaine. Yeah, I completely agree. Well, it's the top of the hour. So I just want to ask, is there anything else you want to mention before we wrap it up? Because I mean, you're

Tara: I mean, I think, you know, as we approach the midterms, like I said, all of the races matter, truly. I think everything is on the map and ⁓ local journalism is not something we have a lot of in this country. So for folks listening who don't know ⁓ about Courier's local network, spreading the word to folks that they know in our states, we just announced a few weeks ago, we're expanding to nine additional states this year. So we're gonna be 20.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: ⁓ that's great.

Tara: States by the end of this year, which is exciting. So folks could go to careerlocal.com and look and see where all of our newsrooms are, but just getting more folks subscribe to our free newsletters. We never charge for our local news content, but we're going to be really, really driving a lot of the coverage where there isn't any frankly in a lot of these competitive house and state and local races that are just so important. And that's the other plug is, know, federal matters, but federal does not matter nearly as much as who your governor is today, who your attorney general is today, who makes up your state legislature, because truly they're the ones who are gonna protect elections. They're the ones who are gonna hold federal employees or appointees accountable where we don't have a functional, not corrupt Department of Justice. So that's my other small plea and pitch is go local, local, local, local in your states.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: And we didn't even get a chance to talk about all the ways that states can ⁓ be fighting this. I saw you talked to Chris Armitage,

Tara: There's a lot and I want more of them to step it up. We're seeing that a little bit in New Mexico with what they're doing on the Epstein investigations. But yeah, there's a lot more that governors and AGs could do and I hope they do step up.

Stephanie Gerber Wilson: do too. So everybody, don't forget to go to YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts and listen to Tara's gloves off. is really phenomenal. It's basically a similar kind of setup as this, where she talks to people about what's going on and what kind of leadership we need. And if you can also subscribe to me paid or free. ⁓ That would be fantastic. Subscribe to Courier Newsroom ⁓ and ⁓ keep up the fight. So thanks so much, Thank you. mean, I don't know. I look up to you so much.

Tara: Thank you so much for everything you do, Stephanie. Really appreciate it.