Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Hi, friends. Welcome to Freedom Over Fascism. I'm Dr. Stephanie Wilson, and I host fireside chats with leaders who are ready to fight to defeat the MAGA murder regime. You can find all my previous podcasts at freedom over fascism, US or YouTube at youtube.com slash at freedom over fascism. ⁓ or wherever you get your podcasts. Please subscribe to me or Nobeze by clicking the chiron above and please smash the hearts to help the algorithm. All my content is paywall free, but I can't make this content without your paid support. So if you can, please choose a paid subscription, which is only $6 a month or $50 a year. During today's fireside chat, we're going to talk to Norbece Flint, the president of All Above All and For All Our Futures, which is a bold campaign to galvanize, organize, and unite communities. around solutions that meet the urgency of the Norbese Flint, welcome to Freedom Over Fashionism. Can you please introduce yourself and let us know about all above all and for all our futures? ⁓

Nourbese: Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Again, my name is Nurbesey Flint. I am the president of All of a Ball. She heard pronouns. I think of myself as a mom, an activist, California girl all the way through and through, and a nerd. Yeah.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: ⁓ me too, even though I've lived in the East Coast for 27 years.

Nourbese: Born and raised in Los Angeles. part?

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Me too. ⁓ Well, not quite Los Angeles, Santa Clara Valley, north of Los Angeles.

Nourbese: Okay, exactly where that is. Yeah, yeah. I grew up in the Silver Lake Los Feliz area. ⁓ But I bring that, but I feel like that part of me, ⁓ I'm also a nerd and Afrofuturist. ⁓ But the reason why I am that way is because I, my roots in Los Angeles, where I got to imagine big ⁓ and live in a place where ⁓

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: That's awesome. Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: people are making movie magic all the time and help push the kind of ideas and possibilities of like what's possible. Which takes me to the work at All Above All, which our shorthand is that we're an abortion-forward reproductive justice organization. But what we do is work for the ability for all people to have the freedom to choose what happens to their body, to decide what happens to their body. And we do that through policy, we do that through partnerships, we do that through building power, and we do that through Imagineering, which is our shorthand for seeing, of looking at like what's next, fighting the battles of today, as well as looking at the battles for tomorrow.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Okay, so you mentioned that you're an Afrofuturist. Tell me what that means.

Nourbese: Yeah, it is coming from kind of a framework, what looks at very sci-fi nerdy pieces of what does it look like to be Black in the future? ⁓ Which in itself doesn't sound like political, but it is the idea that Black people exist in the future and what that could look like. It's a question that I asked myself and figure out how to like work with. ⁓ Some Afrofuturists, even though they might have not called themselves this, is like Octavia Butler, or Rob Benjamin, ⁓ people who think about what the future could be and then start designing towards that, or to interrogate conversations ⁓ using science fiction. ⁓ Science fiction also has this wonderful way of having us explore the current state of humanity through a lens ⁓ that we can like watch ourselves ⁓ and then have different type of discussions than I would say in some other fictional pieces. That's what Star Trek did, that's what Star Wars does, ⁓ has us this like be able to have these conversations about humanity in like a very kind of different way.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm. is that's so exciting to me because one of the things I focus on is how do we talk about politics without talking about politics and culture is a very large part of that. ⁓ and that's really a lot about what are our values ⁓ ⁓ who do we value and what do we value and. And I think that having that lens is really important you're right, if you see it in a different universe, ⁓ can find some distance from where they think they are versus where the fiction ⁓ ⁓ I think ⁓ ⁓ a better picture. What show, movie or whatever do you think is the most effective at showing ⁓ what the future could look like and showing us a path on how to get there?

Nourbese: ⁓ that's such an interesting question. So I know what has personally affected me, which is Star Trek. And the reason why I love Star Trek so much, all iterations, but my favorite was the next generation, which I grew up on, ⁓ is that it showed people in the future that we've solved the isms, right? So like we weren't finding each other. There was post-scarcity.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm. Me too.

Nourbese: And we were exploring kind of the new frontier, right, of space. ⁓ Which said to me that like, this is possible. ⁓ Humanity has every ⁓ ability to strive for a world that it's supposed scarcity. And that's what really pushes me to think, start thinking about not only the work that we do now, but actually how can we like forecast where we wanna be and backtrack from that, right? Which I think is like so deeply imported into the imagination work. ⁓ And what our like opposition do so well is they are radical in the ways in which they think about the future in ways that we would never think about as a dystopian piece ⁓ and then like moving us toward it. I would say that ⁓ though what... ⁓

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: What hits me as like something that I would suggest other folks watch if you're like trying to like think about this moment and like the sci-fi world is Andorra and Star Wars.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: ⁓ my gosh, I was about to bring up Andor. I think it's the most, the best show of, I don't know, a generation.

Nourbese: It's so brilliantly written. It's so brilliantly written, but it also talks about how like propaganda and like fascism and like all the pieces like work, but also still inspires hope and also talks about the sacrifice of the like of what people who are doing the rebellion, who are in the work of activism actually make for the rest of us can be free.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right, and also it humanizes the villains enough to see that they could be our, like, I think often when we think about the villains and the fascists and the dark side and ⁓ the empire, it's almost cartoonish, but when you can, in a fictional world, show how that these people are human, can maybe come to understand that people who are human ⁓ can also be evil and they're not cartoon villains necessarily, maybe they're your next door neighbor. ⁓ And I thought that was really an interesting part of how they developed that show, both.

Nourbese: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: to show what the rebellion has to go through and somebody who's not really, he's out for himself and he moves toward a position in the rebellion. ⁓ And also, what's her name? Dejra and the other guy, how they move from.

Nourbese: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: being human to liking the accolades that they get. ⁓

Nourbese: Mm-hmm. are believing that they were on the right side.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right, they believe that they were on the right side. So how do we learn from that?

Nourbese: Yeah, I mean, I think what I take from all my science fictional pieces are lessons both of caution and of hope. ⁓ I think in Star Wars and Andar, the manifesto about tyranny and how it's oppressive and that people want to be free and that tyranny will break. because it's so hard to like, to hold because it is so just an opposition of where ⁓ people want to be and want to live that like, the part is to try, right? It's to try to break it. And it will because it is actually the opposition of where we are and where we need to be. I think from Star Trek, I take this idea of the possibility of what we can be. ⁓ That scarcity is something that we also create for ourselves. ⁓

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: as you can see very, very clearly this week.

Nourbese: Right. And so that we can also create post scarcity. Great. And that we have the tools, if we put them in the right ways, if we lean into what does it mean to ⁓ celebrate and make sure that every person has the ability to move into their gifts, that that is something that benefits all of us.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: not just some, right? And then I think ⁓ from like my Marvel and DC comics, because I do watch these pieces too. And I think this is what a lesson that is in conflict with how I grew up is this idea of there's somebody going to save you, right? And like,

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm. Right? ⁓

Nourbese: I think a lot of us are waiting right now for somebody to save us because of this like Superman, Batman, Marvel, X-Men type of piece. And we actually need to save ourselves. And how do we like move toward that? Even though I know it's like, it's like a tension that I hold in my heart, right? That the work is... saving ourselves and that starts on every street in every block and in every neighborhood is that we have to be our heroes.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: That is so well said. I think about this a lot. And it's in part of the conversations I'm having, is I know that we're going to need to save ourselves and that it all starts locally. And it's the people that we know, that we talk to in real life. The internet is great and can sometimes form great communities, but it's like your next door neighbors. ⁓ But there's still a piece of me that's like asking, well, what about the elected leaders? Why are they not stepping up? And who can we look to as a model of where we need to be going? And I was just watching Ezra Levin, ⁓ the Indivisible guy yesterday. And he's like, ⁓ this is completely grassroots. There's no leader. This is your small group combining with other small groups to make a movement. And I think there's a piece of all of us that wants a leader to tell us what to do and to tell us when it's time to do it and how to do it and where to go. and what to bring and, you know, how do we keep ourselves safe? But I think it's so decentralized right now that getting used to the idea that ⁓ it's up to us and that we're the heroes, I think it's a really hard transition to make mentally.

Nourbese: It is. It is. again, it's a struggle. But like, I think about the folks who started the Reproductive Justice Movement, which was founded in 1994, where they, they recognize that there was, like, the way we were thinking about reproductive health did not come in an intersectional framework. It was either devoid of race or devoid of gender with a lot of the movements that were happening, right? And that we needed something that saw all of us and saw all the pieces at once. And that ⁓ they just did it, right? And that they are people that ⁓ every day did heroic pieces. that might not seem very big at the time, but they are the reason why I am here today. And so those are the ways in which I push myself both personally and professionally of like, what does it mean for to be able to have been handed a baton that's been through so much in order for me to be here?

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: And for me, like my job is to run it as far as I can for the next folks, right? For the next generation. And that is, I think, the challenge of all of us. And I think there's a safety that we get when we're like, well, those folks get to make the decisions and I can just fall in line. And I do think in some cases it's important for us to fall in line as well. ⁓ And there's a certain scarcity.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: and fear when it's like, ⁓ it's on me, like to show up. ⁓ But I think that piece is like so important that we have to remind ourselves that like it is the everyday ways in which we fight, particularly in this moment of crisis for the country that

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Bye.

Nourbese: Those everyday ways are what's gonna make the difference, right? They are, again, back to the Star Wars scene. Folks are counting on us not to feel afraid to move. They're counting on us to not know what to do. They're counting on us feeling like, well, nothing can be done, so we don't do anything. But that is our superpower, is to be able to move the work. It is to be able to build community, right?

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: I would say also quickly that like one of the ways in which people break rebellions, what are the ways in which they break the fight back is isolation because that's not how we're supposed to be. so building community is just so deeply important. ⁓ And that is something that everybody can do is like be in touch, touch grass with your neighbors, with your friends, with your family. because that is just like the thing that is going to keep us in the fight and when days get hard to be able to move that forward.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Yeah, but I feel like, you know, we're now six years out from the beginning of COVID And ⁓ I feel like that broke something in a of us, that isolation, the learning to ⁓ communicate virtually more than, you know, going outside and talking to your your neighbors. And I wonder what you think. ⁓ mutual aid and local action. It's both, clear in practice and clear in theory ⁓ that has to be the way. And, you know, we're seeing it ⁓ in Minneapolis ⁓ ⁓ also in Maine, which has fallen out of the headlines, the mutual aid, ⁓ there's a, person in this community online who lives in Norfolk, Virginia, who is out there patrolling all the time and helping her neighbors. And there's a whole big group of them. and plus of the experiences, going back, all of ⁓ the crises that aren't just white America. because that's what gets the headlines now. like every minority group has had their crisis, but maybe not the headlines. ⁓ And yet I wonder how many people are, maybe it's just me, but are hesitant to actually meet people in person and move forward in person because we got out of the habit or we lost some skills or I'm not sure. Does that make sense?

Nourbese: Yeah, I mean, I do think ⁓ that it is going outside. It's like actually something that was very hard for folks for a long time. I mean, it takes a lot of logistics and all the other pieces. ⁓ But I also think that we don't need to overthink it. ⁓ And I think a couple of pieces. One, they are local nonprofits all over this country. ⁓ that are doing ⁓ the Lord's work in the sense of like what it means to like organize folks. And like, if you are looking for a place to start, that is the place, right? So if you're like, I don't know what to do. I'm just like, yeah, there are local organizations for everything that you could think of, right? So whether your idea or your passion is around environment. our repo, like what we do, our ⁓ economic justice. There are folks doing that work and have thought about this and need ⁓ your talents. ⁓ The other piece I think is, and when we overthink of it, like I was just on this call the other day where folks, ⁓ this brought together folks that she knows for chats and how just therapeutic it is. ⁓ And I remember at a certain time before COVID, another friend of mine was just like hosting dinners at her house, ⁓ just being in conversation. And like those pieces actually are so helpful where people are able to like have conversation, laugh together, cry together, think, ask questions, ⁓ figure pieces out. And like we...

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: know how to build community like those ways. We just don't think of it as like, like organizing, but that is organizing. And that's what we all ⁓ can ⁓ do. And think about the different ways of how our unique lives and our talents can be contributions to that. So like, maybe you're not a person who can cook, but you could draw and like do the art for like the save the dates and are you could like watch the kids.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: ⁓ because those is really important. ⁓ I can't have a conversation with my four-year-old running around because of everything. And so those pieces is that we need to relearn ⁓ how to be in community. ⁓ And those folks who like build community before internet are still around and then still craft for conversations.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: All right. Right? Right, and some of us who don't want to admit that we are ⁓ came of age before the internet, but did ⁓ are still around. Why do you think, I mean, do you think it's the loss of the muscle? Do you think it's a loss of community institutions? Do you think it's the loss of like a real catalyst? What do you think is kind of the block? And I know it's not a block in a lot of places. There's great community, there's great communities, there's great community organizing, there's people who are really close to their neighbors and their friends. I happen not to have that, which is a huge lack in my life. ⁓ So for those people like me that find their community online, but not next door necessarily, what do you think the block is? ⁓

Nourbese: Yeah, I I will say that I do know that there is powerful algorithms in the prologarchy that ⁓ help push this idea that we need to be like to disconnect us from each other, right? And It's does convenience, right? Where you can push a button and you don't have to talk to anybody. And sometimes it is very helpful. ⁓ But I know our phones are addictive. Our pieces are, like, there are so many things that are addictive and trying to hold our conversation and hold our attention ⁓ that it's not just a kind of innate nature that we just fell out of community with each other. but there's actually forces that want us to be more online, more dialed in, more into the consumerism, more being able to be influenced by like what we're seeing in the algorithms that is working against us. And so I think part of the work that we have to look at is how we like deprogram ourselves, right? relearning again, relearning how we can be in community with each other, whether that's like quick conversations that you can have with your neighbors or quick conversations you have with your friends of like, okay, like how do we be in touch with each other? I don't know about you, but I always feel so good after just like hanging out with the homies. And I think a lot of times we don't think about that as like future. work, we don't think about that as organizing. ⁓ But both for like, ⁓ my crew of friends are folks that I lean on on both, like if I'm having a hard day at work, but also the folks that I tap sometimes for for work, right. And that those pieces are ⁓ just so, so crucial. And so ⁓ to your point, I think that there is things that are working against us.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: And it's not just this natural peace. ⁓ And it's all a part of this, I think, fascist project that is ⁓ wanting us to be isolated and alone so we're not able to organize and fight back.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: So. What would you say is a good first step for somebody who hasn't like, so I just taught my college roommate called me yesterday. College was a long time ago and we're not in, we live on opposite ends of the country. And, you know, we talk for an hour, like as if nothing had, had occurred, but that doesn't happen very often. Like, you know, I feel like most of my conversations are on text or. ⁓ And even the next generation, I have a kid who's 18 and the thought of calling someone to ask a question is overwhelming for him. I made him do it once. He's like, will you sit with me? Dude, you're 18. But sure, let's teach you how to do this, right? ⁓ Or just going to somebody in person and asking them a question, I think. I think that's become really hard for a lot of us. What would be like for somebody who doesn't have their group of besties around, ⁓ what would you say is a good first step for that?

Nourbese: Yeah, I mean, I would go back to like, what is the interest area that you love, right? ⁓ And so for me, it's ⁓ re-prone feminism, science fiction, ⁓ and like comic books, like art and interior design. Those are the things that I like love. could like, you know, they're organizations that are doing all of these pieces. are thinking about all these pieces that ⁓ would love you to hit them up in your community. ⁓ And I would search out those organizations and then say, hey, I'm really interested in this. I would love to volunteer to be in community. Or a club, you really loved, a piece in being in community. And that's how you can start building.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: a space. The reason why I say looking at the activism pieces, because not only is it the space that you can build relationship with folks, but they have thought about strategically of how we can turn our everyday work into something that can be grown and amplified and, and powerful. And those are the ways in which we can like step into the work and step into, I think, the de-isolation. of the straight. ⁓ I'm sure there's like ⁓ all types of podcasts and other pieces that tell you how to like get offline. I'm not an expert in that.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Which is ridiculous, right? We need to go look up on the intranet how to get off the

Nourbese: Yeah, I was like, I am not an expert and I probably am online way too much. But ⁓ I do know there's just a lot of folks who are like looking to build a lot of organizations and I'm in conversation with a lot of orgs that like, would love to like help folks ⁓ and love to talk to folks. And I know on our site, we have ⁓ a reproductive justice house party toolkit. It's totally free. You can download it and it shows how you set up a house party. It gives some drink ideas. So they can talk about it.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: No, tell me more. This is really, actually, think really crucial.

Nourbese: Yeah, like books and like links to like other like things to like if you're wanting to learn and more information or to get real news. So like all of those pieces that you can download and like throw a house party.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: That's brilliant, actually, because I think those are the things that hold a bunch of us back. It's like, oh, people, maybe I have a like, see house behind me, not in the state that I would like it to be. And I think, you know, sometimes getting rid of... those pieces and just being like, okay, this is about people. It's not about how my house looks. doesn't, it's not about the, you know, perfect food. It's not about, you know, perfect anything. It's about being together as people ⁓ is, is really important, but having those guides for those people who don't feel confident, I think is, is really, it's really great.

Nourbese: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: I talked ⁓ a couple of weeks ago to Amanda Litman, the head of run for something. And one of the things she's done over the last ⁓ couple of years is that she and her partner and their kids host dinner on nights, every week. ⁓ Every they host a dinner. Some different people come, but

Nourbese: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: And, you know, it's not a dress up thing. It's not a like fancy thing. It's a, it's a really low key, It's just about like getting to know new people. And, and I, I really, ⁓ in some ways, envy that even though I could do that too, but haven't or don't or you know feel weird about it. So I think that the giving that like even having a here's what you can do, here's the checklist, here's where you could you know find kinds of foods, the kinds of drinks, ⁓ I think is really really

Nourbese: Absolutely.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: more important than it seems.

Nourbese: Yeah, I mean, I think the only thing I would say to that is just like, I think sometimes we overthink pieces. I overthink quite a bit of like, ⁓ my goodness, the sadness and like, people don't care. Yeah, we put more pressure on ourselves ⁓ than most other people will. And particularly if you're like bringing a group of friends over, they're... ⁓

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: No, it's true, people don't care. mean...

Nourbese: I know if my friends invite me, I'm just happy to be in space with them and and like chit chat and being able to like be in conversation. so.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: you gotta do.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: I think that's great. I want to go back to the comic, the comics, because, ⁓ and then eventually to the Star Trek and Star Wars. But so some of the comics out there, ⁓ say Captain America, ⁓ were created specifically to be anti-Nazi, ⁓ because there was a huge... as you probably know, Nazi movement in the United States in the 30s. They filled up Madison Square Garden, you know, Father Coughlin, this massive racist and anti-Semite had thousands and thousands and thousands of listeners to his radio show. And a couple of kids created Captain America to fight the Nazis because America wasn't doing it yet. And there were plenty of people saying that we should be on the side of the Nazis. So I feel like a lot of the comics and I don't know as, so frankly, the reason I know about Captain America and a little bit about Superman is my kid did a report. so ⁓ I learned and. But I also know that they were very distinctly, thoughtfully created for the purpose of not just entertainment, of changing people's minds and moving the culture. So how do you see that having evolved? What is the role of comics or video games or, know, yes, Let's leave Star Trek and Star Wars aside for the moment, but especially because the superhero franchises have gotten so large. What do you see as the role of either earlier or more current?

Nourbese: I mean, comic books like science fiction gives us a way to explore ourselves as well. And so does comics. I mean, there's always been like political commentary with political comments. I'm old enough to remember when we had political comics in the newspaper that, you know, a way to like give humor and sarcasm into conversation around what's going on in our everyday lives. But I think also if we look at Other like either comic books are comic book shows like for us or like X-Men. That was an exploration around race ⁓ and some of the conversations about it. And it was another way that we learned ⁓ for better or for worse different ideas around like the other ⁓ and what does it mean to be other, right? I think all culture is a way of reinforcing norms, ⁓ conversations that can ⁓ have us think. And whether it's comic books, or like I was also a that grew up on Mr. Rogers.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: ⁓ I loved Mr. Rogers. I got mocked for it incessantly, but I loved I loved Mr. Rogers.

Nourbese: I love Mr. Rogers and the new version with Daniel Tiger. ⁓ But like, they all were ways in which they ⁓ taught information and taught us about ourselves, which is also why they're under attack, right? When you see PBS ⁓ being under attack, when you see certain type of comics and certain types of cultural pieces being under attack, it's because they know how powerful they are.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: about expanding us to be our better selves are not. ⁓ We learn things through things that we watch. Most people understand the criminal justice system because of, what is it, law and order, there you go. ⁓

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Well, there's a ton, I actually don't watch, but my mother and my kid does like the endless number of procedurals that are coming out now. That's kind of like Law and Order, but not.

Nourbese: Right, well, it's this piece that like, I I used to think there was a joke that like, every, any moment of the day, you can find a Law and Order show on, right? Like, if I turned on the TV.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: It's true. nursed my 18 year old when I was nursing him as a baby, like in the middle of the night. Law and order and HGTV. Those were my go-tos, you know.

Nourbese: Right. And I think how powerful of like a lot of us learned about like court systems, what people should be thinking about because we all watch this television, which I think also is both ⁓ an opportunity in how we can engage ⁓ and think about how we engage in culture work and also the talent is because we know ⁓ how powerful it is that we see people actively trying to like censor, actively trying to change the news, actively trying to like take comic books and shows that have been ⁓ diverse and make them less diverse because they're trying to push an idea of like who's in and who's out, what's normal. And so there's an important role for culture. now and I would say ⁓ the stakes are just so much higher because in some ways it's the only ways in which some people kind of aren't exposed to ⁓ different ways of the world and how we could be.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: think you're right. That brings to mind heated rivalry a little bit because, you know, the fact, well, first of all, that couldn't have gotten made, ⁓ wouldn't have been made if it were an American studio because ⁓ of, you know, the consolidation and the Puritanism. ⁓ But, you know, got to be made in Canada. ⁓ and it is amazing to me how it has become such a cultural phenomenon, right? It's like, you know, a lot of times the other, whether it's gay people or race-based or religion-based, like shows about them, like always end up in tragedy. And, and this is something that ⁓ that is all like wholesome and good. And I don't think a lot of people, I mean, there are groups of people as groups who don't get to see themselves represented in a way that doesn't like kill them off in the end. I ⁓ just wonder if you have any thoughts on that. I guess it's the same.

Nourbese: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: kind of thing with just a different group of people represented. ⁓

Nourbese: Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen Hita Revame myself on my list, ⁓ but ⁓ there is some research that came out of USC that showed the ⁓ scene LGBTQ communities on television did a world of helping folks humanize LGBTQ folks, right? Which is, ⁓ of course,

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: who we should be thinking and of course LGBTQ folks ⁓ are human people, but it is having the ability to watch television like Will and Grace, Heated Rivalry and other just important spaces where ⁓ gay relationships are normalized, where trans folks are seen. ⁓ that gender nonconforming folks are in space and it's not a big deal, that that helps ⁓ activate a different part of your brain. So it's not in the space of like, somebody's telling me something I should know, but it also, this kind of is like, ⁓ I'm absorbing this information and ⁓ okay, right. And there is a piece of where we've seen how like it's been able to help move folks. ⁓

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: who do not get to expose to different cultures, different identities, different genders ⁓ and their everyday life. And how, again, just deeply important in the work ⁓ that we see these, like we see different versions of our lives and different people's ⁓ lives in space because that culture. of like what it is to be a person, what it is to be human, what is to have life in all its beautiful forms. It's just so like important for not only our own humanity in affirming that, but in affirming everybody else's humanity as well.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right, and in a time when, people in power view some people as more human than others, ⁓ you know, hierarchy of humanity, which is revolting. I think I agree that, you know, when people can see others and sort of, you know, learn about them and empathize or when you see yourself on the screen in a some sort of positive role or when you, and this is a little bit even kind of wacky. So he did rivalry. I read the books, the entire series when it came out. have, I am an avid consumer of ⁓ gay romance. ⁓ I'm straight. ⁓ But it is a genre written by women for women, often mostly straight women. And people are like scratching their heads. But it's a an idea where, like,

Nourbese: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: gender roles and misogyny isn't there, it's absent because it's just not part of that relationship. And that's why so many women, straight women enjoy consuming content about gay men. And that's so many levels deep because the misogyny ⁓ infuses everything in our society. ⁓ homophobia is at court misogyny. You know, this toxic masculinity is so ⁓ such a thing of hatred for the feminine, the woman, the perceived weakness, which is ridiculous because women are stronger. I just want to reflect on that and see how, ⁓ you know, if you want to bring it back to Star Trek, how you feel that these ideas of not just inclusion, but celebration of different people. ⁓ In the original Star Trek, you had your first interracial kiss on television. And then, you know, Next Generation had all sorts that had different species. Well, so did the first one. ⁓ And then even coming forward, ⁓ I remember watching, One of the most recent, they talked about ⁓ there having been a eugenics war, like a ⁓ second civil eugenics war. And that came out.

Nourbese: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: years ago and now I think about it and I think, ⁓ well that kind of, that like hits a little bit closer to home than I would like. Do you want to bring it back around to your favorite pieces?

Nourbese: Yeah, so I know in Strange New Worlds they talked about the eugenics war. ⁓

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: ⁓ yeah, that's rich.

Nourbese: I actually have been thinking about this quite a bit because of how closely our fiction, our science fiction is actually modeling reality. How detrimental it would be ⁓ if we go the same history of Star Trek, right? Because it was.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm. Because they're well past all of the pain.

Nourbese: Yeah, and the pain was real. It was a third world war, was eugenics, it all types of stuff, time wars and all these pieces. But we also see that folks are like moving on these pieces, right? There's one of the new faces of the anti-abortion space is pronatalism, ⁓ who are folks who are full on eugenics. like Nazis who are like, we want to pick and choose who gets to live, who doesn't, who gets to serve. ⁓ And they are, it's a whole bunch of money that is going and feeding into these pieces. ⁓ What they call it PayPal mafia, which is like Elon Musk and Peter Tiller are quite literally trying to like repopulate the world themselves.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Right.

Nourbese: And it is this really dark, I would say incredibly dystopia way of which they're viewing the world. And I think ⁓ what's truly important ⁓ for us to do on our side of folks who are fighting for justice and for liberation and for freedom is in all ways to model what the alternative is. And so that looks like in our TV and movies ⁓ film and conversations and ⁓ all the pieces is what is an alternative world that we could do. I think it's for us in the policy world to model, actually what does it look like for a thriving world? And like, we actually have to have that in conversation with our narrative.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: Like it doesn't exist by itself. And so ⁓ all of these pieces are, think, ⁓ just so deeply connected to our collective liberation that we have to be always like, again, showing the humanity, showing that also there is a win in this world that we're trying to build. and that you exist in this world and that people are happy in this world. And it's not like a L that people have taken, but actually that there is actually a better way than what we have. And like, that is like important for all of us to hold, but particularly in the culture, because like, no matter what type of policy pieces that we're working on, ⁓ like we always say that like culture eats policy for breakfast and we need

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nourbese: people to be able to like, again, model ⁓ what an alternative world can be.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: So how does this combine with ⁓ your world How do ⁓ advocate for more cultural stuff at the same that you're working on policy?

Nourbese: Yeah, and it's us working with folks who do the culture work. So I'm lucky enough, again, growing up in Los Angeles, ⁓ to have met and worked with brilliant folks who do entertainment for a living. And so ⁓ looks like ⁓ American Experiment Project does some great work. ⁓ with harness has been working and doing some great work. ⁓ P68 also has been doing ⁓ great work. And we get to partner with organizations that do that type of work and say, like, look, this is the policy pieces that we're trying to push that we believe are really important. What is the story that we need to be telling folks? ⁓ see, and Gutsy Media, who we work with very closely. And ⁓ they help us. build the entertainment piece. They help us build the conversations that we need to be having. They help us work with folks who are in the entertainment space to be like, well, this is actually how we should talk about pregnancy. Where a lot of times when people are having babies, it looks so like, ⁓ and then somebody comes in and then you scream a little bit. And we're just like, if you want to make it realistic, this is actually what it is. ⁓ very different than what it is on television. And so like in having those conversations, ⁓ that piece helps us be able to drive our work and gives us inroads to be able ⁓ to have conversations with elected officials about like, did you see this on this TV show the other day? There was, ⁓ God, I think it was Grey's Anatomy that they had a storyline. around abortion access. And that was one of the things that was Googled the most the next day. ⁓ And it gave us a way for folks to find us, but also then enter into conversation. ⁓ that kind of push and pull of entertainment and culture narrative shift with policy is very intertwined ⁓ and so core to the work that we do at all.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: And so you have direct conversations with the cultural, people who are making TV and ⁓ and. and you work together with them. ⁓

Nourbese: So both working with the folks who make the pieces and also people who work in organizations that are, to bring the policy and the culture together, right? And so ⁓ we are the experts in our own little world of repro, right? But ⁓ what I would do is then go to the folks, ⁓ like organizations we named ⁓ and be like, ⁓ I really want to talk about this piece around Black maternal health and abortion access and how abortion bans are killing people. ⁓ How do we have this conversation? And so they'll be like, hey, Nabeze, here's a couple of ways. We went to a writer's room, and we did this actually in real life with Gutsy Media. And they came back, and we had an ad that we ran. ⁓ And having that conversation and it helped us enter into conversation with folks or people think about abortion access in a very different way than what was, I think, the conversation that was going on in the election more generally.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: That is amazing. You know, one of my friends from college, not the one I talked to yesterday, is actually a writer on Grey's Anatomy. And she comes out of the political world. she writes for ⁓ Grey's Anatomy. And I think That kind of intersection is just so important. I'm so glad we got a chance to talk more about it. Can you tell folks, it's almost the top of the hour, I wanna just let people know how they can find you and follow you and support you. And yeah, let's do that and then we'll wrap up.

Nourbese: Yes, so ⁓ we can find us at allaboveall.org ⁓ if you want to go on the website. We're also on Instagram, blue sky, and I feel like I'm missing something which my social media person will probably be very upset with me. But also you can find me on Substack ⁓ as well as all above all. ⁓ And then we have some just

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: I'll put that in the show notes.

Nourbese: Like again, a reproductive justice toolkit is on there and you can download if you're trying to do a house party. We have a book club that we do. So if you're into, it was supposed to be romance books, but ⁓ the book club decided to go a different way with some other pieces. But if you want to be in conversation around that, like the conversations in books with some dope people, that's a place you can sign up on our website to join the book club.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: Yeah.

Nourbese: And ⁓ just in general, you can just contact us if you want to know more about abortion and reproductive ⁓ health and the campaign that we're ⁓ leading on. ⁓ What is the future look like for reproductive justice? Which is our for all the future pieces. You can also find it there. ⁓ So yeah, that's all the pieces. But I also want to say thank you. I just really, really appreciate. ⁓ talking about conversation with Star Trek and all the pieces, don't usually get to be able to talk about it.

Dr. Stephanie Gerber Wilson: I don't either. I want to thank you so much because I didn't expect that to be where this conversation went. But it's a conversation I want to have. I'm sorry, everybody. My dog wants to come in and she's going to have to wait 30 more seconds. ⁓ It's a conversation I think is so important. And I've alluded to it. And I've talked a little bit about it. And this is the first time I've really gotten to engage. with it more directly, and I have enjoyed that so much. So I want to thank you for coming on. ⁓ I will have all of the links to all of your places in the show notes, which will be on Substack and on YouTube and everywhere you get your podcasts. And thank you so much for being here.