Brent Ford: surprised myself it's one of those ones where you you think you do this sport for so long and you think well I ever talked about this in the book as well that you've you've seen your limits and you know how far you can push yourself but then all of sudden you know you push yourself that little bit further and you think God I thought I was I thought I was done with all these personal growth moments but here's another one so yeah no it was it was a special day Amber Burke is a world-class free diver and a former elite synchronized swimmer. holds multiple national championships, 17 national records and one Guinness World Record. But her brother Blaine is a national champion and a five-time national record holder in ultra-distance running. His relationship with endurance began at the age of 30 and together the pair have put together a book to the limit which is coming out next month. It's a conversation between a sister and a brother on pushing limits and letting go, I had a chance to quiz both of them on that book and their pursuit of excellence. Well first came across Blaine Burke after he won the 24 hour track invitational here in Canberra but he already had made a name for himself up in Queensland with a little race by the name of Butter but here in Canberra he became the 24 hour national champion with 235 kilometres and 704 metres. Then he was fifth at Decau Gully before an extraordinary six day event in Adelaide crushing my personal dreams because this is one that I was actually looking at in terms of the distance. 855 kilometers and 615 meters. think there's only one name, Yannis Kouris, who's gone better here in Australia. Most recently as well, you would have seen him at King of the Hill, incredible run against Piotr Babis there and a couple of others. And in between all of that, some heartbreak at the Guzzler. He holds five national titles and also is a 24-hour national champion. But we also have his sister Amber Burke. Now this is something really different out of the box for me as well. a world class free diver but also 17 national records, Guinness World Record as well. But the reason why I've got them on this podcast is they're set to release this book to the limit. I absolutely love it. It's a manuscript of a conversation between them. I've read it. I got a lot of insights into both of them and hopefully we can dive through it here on the Peak Too Soon podcast. So I'll start with you Amber, ladies first. Welcome to the Peak Too Soon podcast. Yeah, thanks for having us. And Blaine, fresh off a win I should say as well at Noosa yesterday, so still kicking on. Welcome to the Peak to Seam podcast. Thanks, Fordy. We've been wanting to this for a couple of years, so I'm glad we can finally have a chat. Something so, so different. Amber, I want to start with you. You were a synchronized swimmer first, and doing that at an elite level, and now you've found freediving. But I'm intrigued about how you find that sport. How is that something that you start and get into? Yeah, I just started holding my breath really young and my parents got me into synchronised swimming because of that. I've just always been a water baby, loved being in the water, loved holding my breath and went on to represent Australia in synchronised swimming. Got an injury and missed out on making the Olympics and then I retired after that and yeah, I was feeling a bit lost after that, not really sure what to do with myself and then a couple of years later I stumbled into freediving and ⁓ Yeah, everything kind of started to make sense and freediving has been a big part of my life ever since. It's an incredible sport and one that I'm still learning through reading the book but also just in research for this podcast. But for those who don't know about this sport and what it actually involves, what is freediving? So freediving is basically seeing how far you can dive underwater on one breath. So no tanks, no oxygen, you're just taking a breath. And then you're diving as deep underwater as you can or sometimes it's also done in a swimming pool So just holding your breath stationary or swimming laps underwater in a swimming pool To me, it's absolute nightmare feeling that we've And we'll find out as well throughout this podcast some of the extraordinary lengths of which you've dove underwater I mean we're talking about Guinness World Record type things but Blaine for yourself I think it's a bit of a journey and I'm spoiler alert reading the book and going through that you sort of finding your way to running wasn't quite a simple journey. Yeah, I think similar to Amber because I guess she did find freediving a bit later like there's a bit of a gap there between synchronised swimming and freediving and for me I really didn't find I didn't even know ultra rowing was a thing until I was about 30 I think and so yeah similar situation where I was kind of just fumbling around a bit in my 20s trying to find my niche and then when I found ultra running it was kind of like one of these things that just it like the universe was conspiring it was just a natural pull in that direction and I just felt my whole life going that way as well for various reasons but it was funny because we've lived on and off together, and I and so I've never been Well, yeah, I wouldn't say I've never been the elite athlete in the family because she's always been representing her country in different sports. But I was able to witness that for a long period of time. And so when I did find ultra running, I was able to apply what I learned there ⁓ to this sport and kind of her dedication and commitment. so it really helped me a great deal in finding a little bit of success in ultra running. ⁓ Amber. What does it feel like to hear that from your brother who now is sort of seeing such great success in ultra running, I suppose, for yourself? Putting everything out there and actually chasing a dream can be quite scary, but what's some of the advice that you have for people who might be thinking about chasing a dream but might not necessarily have the courage to commit fully to it? Yeah, talking about Blaine, like... You know, you have always been a good sports person so I think he is a little bit modest. But yeah, I'm very glad that I could be some small source of inspiration there. I suppose we both come from kind of sporting backgrounds. I grew up doing quite a bit of sport. About following your dreams, I suppose you just have to go with your gut and go with what feels right. I know think it's both the same for me and Blaine is when we found these... Yeah, our sports, it just felt right. Like it feels like that's what you're meant to be doing. And I think when you have that feeling, you just have to follow it. really like that way of talking about it. And one of the chapters that I really liked in the book was commitment and around sort of commitment to what you're actually looking to achieve. I want to perhaps Amber get some insights into your mind in terms of how do you go about trying to work yourself up to this goal of of getting 85 meters underwater on one breath. Yeah, just starting so gradually and just setting little goals. you know, in the beginning I just wanted to dive 20 meters underwater and then I just aimed for each whole number. It's probably similar in running. Then you want to do 30 meters, then 40 meters and add a few more meters every year. And then suddenly I was in reaching distance of the national record. yeah, I have that now, which is 85 meters. Wow. That's just actually... And so people can get an understanding of this. So diving 85 meters underwater. That's without oxygen. That's without... Is it any... Is there any support whatsoever? Is there a rope? Where how does it actually work? Yeah, so you have a line and you have weight at the bottom of the line and if you do it in competition, which you have to do if you want to make it an official record, then you have to dive. So yeah, just take a breath at the surface and then swim down to 85 meters and then you grab a tag at the bottom and swim back up. You have to bring that tag back to the surface to prove that you went to the bottom. There's also a camera at the bottom to prove that you went there. But otherwise there's no support down there. ⁓ A safety driver will meet you on the way back up. So they'll meet you at about 30 to 40 meters on the way back up because that's the highest risk area. So if you're going to black out from loss of oxygen, that's when it's going to happen. So someone will meet you for the last part of the dive and escort you to the surface just in case. Blaine, it's a little bit different, I suppose, to what you're doing. But talking about commitment, and I think nobody can question your commitment to what you're doing in in ultra running and particularly King of the Hill and I want to talk about King of the Hill because it's just become this big phenomena at the moment in ultra running circles but your preparation for that was sort of all in. We're talking running up hills every day, talking long distance running. think during your training runs you're doing 70 to 80 kilometres so it's a little bit different in terms of the preparation to most but I think when you go to these events it's fair to say now you're one of these people that people can look at and say, well, hey, he's going to be one that's going to be right up there in the mix. Yeah, I mean, I guess I've always believed in the long running. I feel like that's the best way to prepare your body for the race. Like you have to do the things that you're expecting your body to do to perform. But you know, it is like it's a balancing act. Like, yes, I am fully committed to it, but you know, I also try to make sure I have a lot of time for other stuff in my life as well. And I think that comes hand in hand, you know? Like I feel like I would probably get burnt out if it was all running. But I definitely make a lot of time for that downtime and time with family. And yeah, if ever I want to go out and get some waves or go to skate park with a little fella, you know, I definitely have a lot of recreation as well as just hard work in my life. So yeah, it's all right. Has the preparation changed since you became a dad? Funny you should say that. I didn't know Ultra-Rang was a thing until I did become a dad. I ran my first Ultra six weeks after Sutton came along. The biggest change man has been when the second child came along. Like I was still able to do quite a bit of volume for those first three years when Sutton was with us but... When Kingsley came along, man, two is like having seven, ⁓ quickly my volume has dropped off, but what I'm noticing is that my times are actually getting better. so, whether that's experience or maybe I was feeling effects of fatigue before, ⁓ but I'm still managing to perform even though I don't quite have the same amount of time. Yeah. find it just quite incredible. Amber, for yourself, going back to... to free diving and talking about it I'm just so intrigued because it is just so different to anything I think I've spoken about on this podcast and this sport to me is just incredible. Finding a way there from synchronized swimming and missing the Olympics as you said before, when you sort of dedicate a lot of your life to that sport and then miss out because a lot of us won't be in that position to be an elite sports person but what Is that emotion kind of like when you are striving towards a goal and you miss out on something that eases as big as the Olympics? Yeah, it was a pretty difficult time in my life and to be honest, I was ready to leave synchronized swimming probably before then and I probably wasn't enjoying it as much as I should have been. But it just becomes all that you know and it becomes your entire life and so when that's gone, it's quite difficult to pivot into. What else am I going to do with my life now? So yeah, just have to give yourself like a bit of time and take it day by day and eventually you'll figure out what to do. It changes a little bit. And I think Blaine going back to you and going to the fourth chapter in this is in this book about resistance. I've actually got the book here. So I actually wrote down a couple of notes and things that I wanted to sort of talk about in the podcast. And you sort of talk about gratefulness and how that plays a role in resilience. ⁓ But when you won the national 24 hour champs, and I know that your parents actually come and crew you to add a lot of these events, we saw your dad ⁓ at the King of the Hill event, but then also I met both of your parents at ⁓ the national champs. And a friend actually warned you not to drive to Canberra for that event, but that's exactly what you did. I think a lot of Queenslanders actually do. uh... into camera uh... that i mean those grand war that i've show you know in front of the uh... by he said yet i don't drive down to the lakes will will turn into dead robin and i probably didn't take him seriously as i often don't and started but they are just started running and the legs were shot off to take a lot it is really that grateful as well as i reports is a resilience project it's um... By Hugh I'm going to butcher his last name so I won't try but he's from that podcast Imperfects and He talks about the three pillars of resilience, which is ⁓ empathy and then you've got gratefulness and the last one's mindfulness I really like those those as that as a concept and that gratefulness piece I think is just huge like, you know, just being grateful that you're there Amber said something similar in the book which was around Not that you have to do this thing, but you get to do this thing, you know, like we're all so privileged to have our health and you know, so yeah, just being grateful I think, you know, plays a big role in being resilient. Did that answer the question? I think it did. And the other thing that I remember from that day is Not only like you and Joe having this epic battle but I think it was the first time that a lot of people got introduced to Holly Ranson and what she was capable of doing but I think that day on the track and you talk about being grateful I think I was grateful to see just so many talented runners in Canberra on the same track in two different races it was just an incredible day Yeah it was so cool like and seeing those guys at the start like play Dawson and Nick Banford just like whizzing past me as well and Holly Ransom was one too that I never was able to catch him. I mean we've seen what she's gone on to do as well. So yeah it was and I've seen Phil there as well obviously representing Australia so that was a huge event. In fact up until yesterday's NUSA I would say that was my greatest race I've ever ran but ⁓ yesterday might have just taken the cake but ⁓ yeah I've only looked back on that. Incredibly fondly, but I've also never done a 24-hour race since because it was incredibly painful It is and a lot of people talk about it in in that way I'm intrigued to just dive into that you'd talk about Yesterday being perhaps your greatest worries How do you how do you define it when you've done? What you have done in Adelaide with the sixth day when you talk about King of the Hill and what you're able to do there on? Basically next to no sleep for what seemed like two days there Like, how do you define what would be your best performance? It's kind of how far you're willing to push yourself when your back's up against the wall. And so that national championships, like I was hurting for a long period of time, but I was able to maintain it and maintaining it was enough against Joe, just kind of ticking off each hour. But yesterday, when my back was up against the wall, I really had to lift to a new... ⁓ Yeah, just a new place of performance and I managed to do that in the last hour of the day and yeah, it surprised myself. It's one of those ones where you you think you do this sport for so long and you think, well I never talk about this in the book as well, that you've seen your limits and you know how far you can push yourself but then all of sudden, you you push yourself that little bit further and you think, God. I thought I was done with all these personal growth moments but here's another one so yeah, it was a special day. That's just so cool and I think you keep just sort of redefining it each time you get out there and I think as well what I can appreciate is the variety in terms of what you've been able to do over sort of like 100k race to a track race to doing a six day to doing King of the Hill like they're all very different, dead cow gully as well being in the top five there. I think they're all very different, different events which I can really appreciate. The other interesting thing I think out of the book and talking about social media, and I was quite interested, Blaine, in your comments around social media and what you're actually talking about in terms of you don't actually perhaps go onto others' social media and it might actually be your own social media, ⁓ and Amber's comments about it being... ⁓ your own highlight reel. You're not really going to share bad moments on Instagram, which I think quite a number of people are guilty of. But Blaine, just go through that sort of process in terms of like scrolling and feeling that confidence. Because I think referencing as well, Andre Agassi as well, something he used to do in terms of watching his own highlight reels to get that sort of confidence and swagger. Yeah, I mean, I guess that story was around this controversial character, suppose, Tony Robbins. I don't know, maybe he's controversial. I don't know what to say. But he was coaching Andre Agassi through a low point. And I guess the way he fixed that issue with Andre was going around to his house and showing him videos of Andre at his best. And so what he was doing and so what they noticed together was, you know, everything was different between his body language and, you know, even how he was hitting the ball. And so it's just such a, yeah, I guess it's just such an important thing to kind of remember that when you're at the top of the game, how you're, like what the narrative is like going through your mind, but how you're carrying yourself around your competitors and just day to day life with your family and things like that as well. know, Amber raised this great point of having, you've got to deal with things before the event. comes up so if you notice any anxieties or anything like that they really have to be dealt with before you start the race. ⁓ One thing I did yesterday was I had believe on my arm and it was just purely from this book that I got this idea because Amber said if ever you notice anything in the lead up to a race you really have to address it before you start the race and I noticed a bit of self doubt creeping in because last year I didn't have the best season and I could sense myself telling myself negative stories in my head about how you know maybe you've missed the opportunity here and you're not going to get like an opportunity again and so I just really focused yesterday on just believing that what I my best would be enough and just that I could lift what I needed to and so I guess circling back like that's just a piece around mindset but circling back to the social media thing I'm super wary of not putting other athletes on pedestals so I don't want to spend my time idolizing other athletes on ⁓ social media and things like that and I think it's great if like drawing inspiration from them is great but if you find yourself in a position where you're starting to say well I can't be like them then that's not going to be great for your development as an athlete so in terms of social media I like to flick back to my own profile quite a bit and just like the Andre thing, look through all the races I've had where I've done really well in and it's another exercise I did yesterday as well and just see well that's how I looked when I was winning, that's how looked when I was in that winning mindset. ⁓ But yeah, honestly this book To The Limit, I got so much out of it just from talking with Amber and we don't often get to talk about this stuff that much but... Yeah, I was surprised with how much I actually learnt from her all over again. I thought I'd nipped up all the lessons I had from her, but I still have a couple. And it was really interesting to see how similar the two sports are, considering they couldn't be more different, like how similar they are in a mental way. Like, definitely both like mental sports. I think as well, Amber, like you talking about social media and you're saying like you don't really like to be... on it which I sometimes think is actually just a nice way to just zone out and not actually be a part of it. And your sometimes preference is to go to the tunes which I think a lot of runners would actually feel because it's just a way to sort of zone out. But how do you prep for these type of events, these dives where a lot of what you go into is going to happen over the space of a couple of minutes? Yeah, like Blaine said, I think it's so important to just focus on your own race and your own abilities and tune out what everyone else is doing. Freediving can be quite a strategic sport because you don't know until the day what your competitors, how deep your competitors are going to try and dive. so just bringing that focus back to yourself and being really honest with yourself about, what am I capable of? today and announcing a dive that I know I can do and not letting what anyone else is doing get in the way of that. I do like the focus just turning back to yourself in both sports, in both running and free diving as well. It's something I was talking to Claudine Chea, mindset coach recently about was actually putting the focus back on yourself and worrying about what I can achieve or... or if you're talking about yourself, what you want to do and what you want to do out there rather than worrying about. I think that's where I see a lot of similarities between both of you is where you're actually focusing on your own personal abilities and what you can actually do. Yeah, it's really easy in freediving to get a bit overly ambitious and if you attempt to dive that's too deep, then you can end up with either a penalty or disqualification and. I suppose it's similar in these ultra marathons. see how important it is for Blaine to pace himself and to go at the pace he knows he can keep and not worry about what anyone else in the field is doing and not risk burning out or something. Do you feel the same, Blaine? Yeah, 100%. It's that balance, right? In ultra marathons, it's like you've got to that perfect balance to where you know you can push yourself. but you can still take on things like fuel and all that. So, ⁓ yeah, it's about being a hundred percent dialed in to, you know, your body and your mind. Yeah. And I think I watched Blaine do that yesterday. I so like slowing down when he knew he had to slow down like towards the middle of the day when it was very hot and taking a little extra time for some water breaks. then, and then towards the end when he knew he had that, little bit more energy, like really pushing at the end. that was interesting to see. think it plays into the confidence and I think you've got to have a lot of confidence in both of your abilities in terms of your different sports to be able to achieve what you're actually trying to do. But I think Amber, was sort of reading and I think When you're talking about, I think it's the 85 meter dive, and you're sort of talking about the training and you hadn't done as much of the training as you would have liked, leading into that, but I think the visualization played like this real key in terms of doing that, but what does visualization look for you? For me, it's pretty basic. I'm just visualizing doing the dive again and again, and visualizing hitting that depth that I want to hit. and then surfacing and doing when we come up, we have to do a surface protocol. So we have to like take off our facial equipment, give an okay sign and say, I'm okay. And if you don't do that, the dive doesn't count. And so I really wanted to do this dive in this competition, but I hadn't done close to it in training. But I was receiving some coaching at the time and I talked to my coach about it and he's like, you know, if you have a good day, you're going to be able to do it. So I just have to. Yeah, convince myself that it's within my ability and I just, yeah, just like kind of like meditation, like laid down on a yoga mat and just visualise every aspect of that dive over and over again, just hitting that bottom plate at 85 metres. And then when I went to do the dive, it just felt like I'd already done it because I'd visualised it so many times. People talk about that a lot, particularly in the running world, but I think it's something that is applicable to all sports. If you can visualize it, you can see it, you can do it. It doesn't matter whether or not you've done it before. think that visualization is such a key aspect of it. What's that feeling like to be someone who dives that far? What's going through your mind when you're actually taking part in the dive? Because it is such a short period of time. for me, I imagine there's so many things that can go wrong during that period as well. Yeah, it's kind of a bit more complicated than most people think because mostly because of the equalization too. So you're not just like taking a breath and diving, you have to manage your air and make sure that you have enough air in your mouth to equalize all the way to the bottom. And yeah, it's just about like staying in the moment. That's probably the most important thing in freediving because it's only like a three minute dive, but it can feel like an eternity. just continually bringing yourself back to the present moment and not getting ahead of yourself. So if you start thinking about how am going to get back up to the surface when you're on the way down, then the dive's already, you've already failed the dive. Like you're not gonna make it down if you're already thinking about how am I gonna get up? just, you know, you you can do it. You've done it in training. So there's no point worrying about getting back to the surface ⁓ because yeah, you've already done, you've already trained that part. So just staying in that present moment and continually bringing your thoughts back to the present moment. I find that incredible. I was thinking about this this morning when I was wondering about questions to ask around this and what people might be so interested in. I've currently got a friend who's doing like a 24-hour swim at the moment in a 25-meter pool. I was thinking, well, this free dive is more than three laps of that pool holding the breath. You're going straight down. My biggest fear in all of this would be the coming up, but I'm intrigued to hear you just say, well, you're not worrying about that because you've already sort of done the bit going down, which I find incredible because the amount of time going down and then coming up, like, what is like a worst case scenario for this sport? So there's a couple of risks. ⁓ One is a lung injury from like compressing your lungs when you're not ready for the dive. So that it basically just comes down to training. So you have to build up the flexibility so that your body can handle the pressure at depth because there's a lot of pressure on your body and a lot of pressure on your lungs when you're at that depth. So that's not really something I've had to worry about because I've been freediving for nearly 15 years now. And so I've built up that flexibility. But the other risk is that you black out from loss of oxygen. And so it's not a sport you can ever train on your own. Like I'm very jealous of Blaine who can just go out for a run on his own for hours. ⁓ So freediving, if you're training freediving, you always have to have someone with you, someone watching you, because no matter how good you get at freediving, it can sneak up on you. And so that is always a risk. That's something that we always have to be aware of and we always have safety divers with us for that reason and that's why we also use a line and we're tethered to that line. ⁓ if you black out deeper than the safety divers then they can pull you to the surface. In competition they use a counterbellis so that counterweight can drag you to the surface. ⁓ But that is almost always going to happen at the end of your dive when you're near the surface or after you've surfaced. So it doesn't happen halfway through your dive. So it's not going to happen when you're 80 meters underwater. If it does, then you shouldn't be diving that deep. You have to be really honest with yourself and what can I do? And we only ever increase our depth very gradually. So you do 70 meters and then 72 and then 74. You're not doing big jumps between depths. So like this jump to 85 over to give people a perspective of how long it takes to then build up to that. You're talking about doing this sport for more than a decade, know, 15, 16 years. To build up to that 85, like what was your depth before that? I think it might have been 78 or something like that. But how often like... What would be the go now that you've done 85? Like how long until you look to try and increase that or is it just trying to replicate that again and then go, okay, we've done it a couple of times and now we go and find some new depth? Well, the 85. me to dive, it just comes down to how it feels and it felt really comfortable and I know I can hold my breath longer, I know I can dive deeper than that. The only thing that's holding me back now is the equalization. So I just have been unable to equalize my ears deeper than around 80 meters and I don't, yeah, not sure how I'm going to overcome that yet but I have had this problem a few times before. I got stuck at 40 meters and then I got stuck at 70 meters and then you just... The more you train, the more you work on different techniques and you find you somehow find a little bit more air that you didn't know you had. So it's just something I'm going to have to work on. I find that incredible. You're talking about getting stuck at 40 and now you're doing 85. Like it just boggles my mind in terms of like building into that. But going back to you Blaine and talking about like this mindset and what goes through the brain. I mean, you've done some of these long term events. now we've seen you ⁓ at Noosa, we saw you at the Guzla, we won't talk about mandatory gear, but like, then you go, then you go and do what we're talking about in terms of like the six day ⁓ in Adelaide. And then you've also done the King of the Hill. When you're so deep into these events, and it shifts from athlete to athlete in running and people like Phil Gore like to talk about just what's in front of them in that moment but how do you break down say a six day run in Adelaide when it's your four days deep and you've still got another 48 hours to go? So there's a couple of parts to this I reckon and you probably brought up a good point about my mindset around taking this stuff on with the mandatory gear thing. Like I'm a very kind of relaxed person and my approach is quite relaxed and so quite often I just, you know, like Amber and I were kind of planning this thing with my wife on the night before we went to Noosa and so I, you know, I'm pretty poor at planning. It gives my crew some serious headaches because they, like, you know, I'll walk up to the hill. Here's a good example. So I get a message from Blaine 5am yesterday. Can I go buy this very specific brand of iced coffee that he needs to have during the race that is only sold at like one shop? And like, couldn't we have known about this a couple of days before? Like, I'm panicking that they're going to be sold out and I'm going to have to go to three different coles to find this iced coffee. Yeah, so I have a real way of just kind of... Like it's a very simple approach and very disorganized. And man, Amber's been saving me through my whole life because of this kind of thing. Like when we were kids, I'd drive to a fuel station. That's a funny story. Once I started my first job, I drove to a fuel station and I pull up and I fill up my tank and I go, oh shit. And I call Amber. I say, mate, I've forgotten money. Can you please drive over here and pay for my fuel? So she starts driving. She gets halfway there. I have to call her again and I go, ⁓ dude, I've also forgotten my shoes. Can you go back and get my shoes? I'm going to work, but anyway, so I'm a bit of a shocker when it comes to stuff, but I think when I take on these big events in my mind, that really helps because it doesn't seem that hard. You know, I kind of just look at it and think, ⁓ yeah, like running for six days, can't be too difficult, you know? So. And then I get surprised on the, you know, the fourth or the fifth day and I think, oh shit, well, this is pretty hard. And by that stage, you kind of just, you just got to keep ticking it over, right? You just, you're in the moment then. So yeah, it's kind of like that approach, like worry about, you know, worry about the bridge when you have to cross it kind of thing. Um, but yeah, you know, we did, we talked a bit in the book about, like breaking things down into parts and that was another thing I was surprised it was so similar in freediving and ultra running is that like in freediving you never think about the whole dive that you have to do and no matter what level you're at if you want to swim four laps of the pool underwater you're not gonna go underwater and go okay I'm gonna do four laps you're gonna go you're gonna tell yourself I'll just do one lap I'll turn around and see how I feel and then after the first lap You're like, okay, I'll do one more lap and then I'll see how I feel. I think, yeah, Blaine mentioned it's similar in running. just, you're not thinking about how far you have to go. You're just thinking about, okay, just get to the next, next checkpoint or whatever. Or I think you mentioned like doing a return run. So you run as far as you can in one direction and then you're forced to come back. Yeah, that's right. go on. Well, I think talking about that mindset and I think that relaxed nature, Blaine is... perhaps like to your benefit and not actually worrying about some of the things that people would worry about in terms of how am I going to run for six days? How am I going to get up this hill, you know, as many times as what you and Piotr actually did over those couple of days? It's just mind-blowing. think sometimes we actually stress ourselves out unnecessarily for things that haven't occurred yet because we don't know the outcome. We can visualize things so many times. ⁓ I think sometimes a lot of, you know, everyday runners are guilty of visualizing bad situations rather than, hey, what if I do have a good day today? What if I do get a PB or something like that rather than being, you know, ⁓ I'm going to be out here 42Ks or whatever for a marathon. So I think that mindset is actually a positive in many aspects. Yeah, I definitely agree. And you're right. Like, ⁓ like, how, how? What's that? Analysis something? Paralysis by analysis? can't pronounce it. Analysis paralysis? Yeah. Yeah, that's the one. yeah, so that's definitely a thing. But when I do look at someone like Phil Gore and he's just so meticulous, I think really if I want to get to that next level, I'm probably going to have to, that's definitely an area I need to improve upon. And hopefully come King of the Hill the end of this year, I can be a lot more prepared and give it a run for its money. Talking about flow as well and one of the good quotes I like from my granddad was a good big man will always be a good little man, but I think that must be rugby or Aussie rules for a lady because I don't know if it's too applicable in either of your sports, but I think it is like a good insight perhaps into your family dynamic and ⁓ talking about it before and Your mum and dad coming and crewing you and your dad crewing you at King of the Hill Blame, but I guess ⁓ Did they sort of to have two children who were sort of at the pointy end now of both of their sports? I mean, where does that come from? Were your parents athletes? ⁓ Well, so they're both incredibly encouraging dad I'd say was an athlete. He was very sporty and ⁓ You know, they they really did ⁓ kind of give us a try of everything. Like it was a typical kind of Aussie family where you'd have like seven days and eight of them would be taken up by doing sport training runs and games. you know, I got some great memories of dad just standing on the sideline needing to go to toilet, but he had this, he was superstitious that if he went to toilet, I'd get out in cricket. And so we'd just stand on the sidelines holding it in. You know, they were... Yeah, I mean, Amber could probably talk more to this, but last thing I'll say was a couple of years ago, we were like all training together and we used to call dad the sergeant because he'd just, ⁓ like during COVID, he'd force us, he'd come around every Saturday and get us to do a beep test and then a high intensity workout. And then he'd go at the end of it, let's do another beep test guys. And so we started calling him the sergeant, but, ⁓ both mum and dad, ⁓ you know, they've both been so encouraging and really instilled that sense of self-belief. But I might throw it to Amber if she's got something else to say on Yeah, and I think like your dad was probably the more sporty one, but mum also raised us with a lot of like mindfulness techniques and taught us to meditate very, like I remember meditating very young and I don't think many kids probably do much meditation. ⁓ And yeah, just, All those techniques that we've probably grown up taking for granted and just brought into our sport now. Yeah, you're 100 % right. I really love it and another aspect of this book that I found interesting is I imagine both of your sports are quite uncomfortable. I know ultra running is quite uncomfortable, but I imagine freediving to some extent when you're talking about equalization, when you're talking about actually holding your breath and the like is uncomfortable. But both of you seem to overcome either discomfort or pain, however you want to describe it ⁓ in your own manner of ways. Amber, I might throw to you first in terms of sort of how do you go about thinking about ⁓ uncomfortable aspects of your sport? Yeah, it can be challenging in freediving, like your survival instinct is to breathe and so you're constantly... fighting against this base survival instinct that's just going, just breathe, just breathe, just breathe in the back of your head the whole time. And I, yeah, I suppose it just counts down to, yeah, those simple mental techniques that you just reinforce every day and use over and over again. yeah, just bringing yourself back to the moment and thinking about what you can control and what you can't control. I just think about relaxation, staying as relaxed as possible. constantly doing a head-to-toe body scan and ⁓ knowing it's uncomfortable but it's temporary and the outcome will be worth it in the end, hopefully. Plan for yourself. It's probably a little bit longer to actually sit in and to some degree it might be suffer but I think looking at King of the Hill for example, the only thing that brought you unstuck there was perhaps lack of sleep and not actually being able to sleep the amount of hours that you would have liked and so you just get to this stage where your brain is fried basically. definitely, I think so but there's also those little moments that just kind of like there's little things you get wrong along the way and they pile up and then they suddenly turn into this belief that you can't keep going. Yeah, the sleep deprivation wasn't good, like there's a bit of hallucinating and stuff like that, but I still think that I lost the race in other areas, it wasn't just that. But yeah, in terms of pushing through, just knowing that there's gonna be light at the end of the tunnel, know, you're gonna be out of pain one way the other. ⁓ When you put so much time and like effort into training for these events there's like quite a lot riding on it and so you I kind of remind myself of that like you've you know you've come this hard you put this many hours into training like just down the water for a bit longer It's a good way of viewing it because often there's a there's a saying in the ultra running world that the training is actually the event and the event itself is kind of the celebration of what you've actually been able to ⁓ achieving in training and I feel for those athletes who get to these events that put in know hundreds to thousands of hours across the course to try and actually get prepared for this race and that doesn't go their way but I think failure has so many different meanings to different people like for example not finishing a race or not being able to achieve a dive can mean different things to different people but my view on Failure for example is just the start of actual journey. It's not an ending point unless you choose to end there I think if you fail in in something, it's just another chance to actually learn. Okay, how can I actually do that better next time? Yeah, 100 % it's like that old arm You never you never lose you either win or you learn but what I will say to that is as at King of the Hill as there with a bloke called Peru who was the previous year's winner and this guy went all in on this event ⁓ last year and so training huge volume, clearly had made huge sacrifices for it and he pulled up after about 60 hours and he decided he was done. Anyways, the commentator got on and said, hey mate, how does it feel? You have clearly gone absolutely all in. This has been your life this entire year. And it's ended here and very, very like straightforward question. And he, and he goes, how does that feel? And this Peru just goes, well, what else am I going to do? I love that answer. Right? Like you're just doing, you know, you're just training and what else are you going to do with your life? So I think, um, yeah, it's a test. I thought that was a great response and you know, it's a testament to process and how. it should never be about the outcome, it's just about, you know, if you love what you do then you do that and, you know, the rest will probably look after itself. Intrigued to hear your thoughts, Amber, because I guess for you this is the life really, like you're at the top of this sport. Yeah, I think highs and lows are a big part of sport and I've had some, same as Blaine, had some really great highs and some really big lows. A years ago I spent almost an entire year training for a world record attempt and it was a huge expense on my behalf and I'd put so many hours of training into it and I was unsuccessful, I didn't get the world record and I was just devastating but I kind of just sat in that heartbreak and just accepted that that's a part of... putting so much on the line and being passionate about something and you will have those big lows and they might be followed by big highs, they might not, but it's just part of life and you just have to embrace it and just be grateful that you've been given the opportunity to experience these highs and lows and that's one of the great parts of sport. Gratefulness is something that think is something that I'm coming to terms with. I was injured for quite a period of time over the last couple of years and able to watch some people do just incredible things but now that I'm not injured and actually being able to experience training fatigue and the like it's just that gratefulness that my issues at the moment are being fatigued from training and not actually being injured so I think it comes in many different perspectives. Chapter 7 is quite an interesting one, it can be a little bit woo woo talking about surrender but I get this one completely, I think immersing yourself, ⁓ but I was watching, for example, like Aussie Rules is one of my favourite sports and so I watch different players and last year's Brownlow medallist Matt Rauw, there was like photos of him or videos of him eating the grass before playing. Like I don't recommend doing that, but I think like to some degree connecting and particularly trail runners will like to connect with the actual... in some way or another and Blaine I think that's something that you absolutely embrace. Yeah definitely and Amber had a great thing to say on this as well in this chapter which I took away from it but yeah one thing I started doing last year was I'd start like it's hard to but I've always tried to imagine myself as just part of the environment like just kind of floating through the environment like everything else. It is getting a bit woo woo. And one thing I do pre-races is like I'll, I will like pick up some dirt and kind of like sprinkle it through my fingers or I'll go find a big tree and just put my hand on the tree as just a symbol of being connected with nature and that I guess, you know, we're going to be working together in this event. But you know. I don't know, Amber, do you remember that section, what you said? absolutely. And I was so surprised to hear Blaine say that because I've had such similar experiences with the ocean. Because when you're attempting these fates and like when you're diving deep in the ocean, you don't want to feel like you're fighting against the ocean or that the ocean doesn't want you to be there. You you want to feel like you're a part of the ocean and that it wants you to be there. And I think that helps you do the dive. helps you do the run. Yeah, I think there's something along the the quote of an instructor told you once like the ocean loves you. Yeah, and I when she said that I was like, ⁓ that's a bit lame and I laughed and now I always think it to myself and I find it so helpful. I'd say even now since you said that in this book, I say it when I go surfing all the time. I just I love it. Yeah, yeah, it makes you feel welcomed. It's a good way of viewing it though, and I think a lot of people can actually... Well, one thing I learned is that you can only have sort of one thought in your brain at a time. So if you're thinking about something, then you're not actually thinking about, you know, might I be in pain or am I at risk here or is something going wrong? You're actually thinking, okay, if you're looking up at the trees and you're looking and saying, ⁓ this is beautiful, and immersing yourself actually in all of that, then that actually starts to become a part of... your being in some way now I'm getting a bit woo woo but I actually... do like this connection. do like the connection and the thinking of you know we are a part of this but we are just a small part in what is a much much bigger picture. Couldn't agree more and doesn't that help you deal with the lows as well because at the end of the day you know we're just a speck in this universe but yeah I... Completely agree with what you're saying 40 just taking a look around and seeing the views and the environment and yeah, that's good I also think talking about release and dopamine and and the like and I think playing different journeys here But so talking about bins drinking a little bit in the book and I was sort of to a degree the the same where you would actually turn to alcohol And I really related to what you're saying in terms of like that first hit is like really good and then okay, so if I had a couple more then what's that going to to feel like and I think now for me the reverse is okay I feel good after a couple of K's and what's like 20 K's going to feel like after that? Yeah, I mean it's a pretty common sort of story that There's a lot of ultra runners that have that sort of addictive personality. And running, I probably found health and fitness before I found running, like ultra running. I think I was just lucky that I had a bit of a circuit breaker in my early 20s. I was kind of sort of like going round and round in circles. Like I'd binge drink every couple of months and I'd feel shit about it for a couple of months. Life, like Anne was saying, I was a little bit lost as well. I was working a bit of a dead end job, big hours. I was in a band and we were playing music in empty bars and so it was just a really tough time in my life. And then eventually after one of these big nights, I said to Amy, I was just like, oh. I gotta do something about this, like we gotta get out of here, like I just need a circuit breaker. And we end up getting a one-way ticket to Barcelona. And the plan was to just learn Spanish and I didn't know whether I was gonna come back or not, but eventually I ran out money so I had to come back. And then we went towards a talent that, so another thing I was going through was I had, I kept dislocating my shoulder, I had a couple of reconstructions on my shoulder as well. You know, it was just a tough time. And as part of my rehab, on the way back from that trip, we stopped in at Bali. And so we were there for about five weeks or so and we joined this CrossFit gym. And by that stage, you we'd been on the road for about a year. So those habits, those kind of toxic habits had kind of like resolve themselves, you know, because no longer do I feel like I was coming back to, you know, binge drinking and things like that. And I got into this CrossFit gym and it turns out that I had a bit of a knack for it. So I was very fast and was pretty fit and was able to keep up with the other guys. And I thought, ⁓ well, this is pretty cool. I'd like to see how good I get at that. And so then eventually when we made it back to Australia, I was fully like, you know, I just re-identified as somebody that was right into health and fitness rather than, you know, kind of the burnt out museo that ⁓ had a bit of an issue with drugs. So yeah, and then I got into high intensity workouts, got into obstacle course racing. A few ultra runners actually have that path of obstacle course racing as well. I know Timmy Capp and Quentin Gillan, those guys were doing it before. But yeah, then from obstacle course racing found ultra running and here we are, And then Amber, think as well, your... Answer to this was a really eloquent one where you were talking about like there's so many pressures in daily life that when you actually get into the water all of that seems to wash away. Yeah, it is really nice to have some time just yourself and your thoughts and ⁓ Yeah, just like switch off from external societal pressures and social media and just be with your thoughts and just focusing on the one thing and focusing on the dive. Yeah, I think it's become a really important part of my life. I really like the way of actually when you're in that moment and I try to do it when I'm training is I don't think about sort of what's happened. in life and I think sometimes like it is actually just this really nice escape to be able to get out and train and it is that sort of maybe 10 hours of a week where you're not actually thinking about ⁓ anything else outside of what's in front of you. Another topic I think that can be controversial for some but I don't think it should be controversial is around sort of belief and confidence. So belief in oneself and I think in this country here in Australia, sometimes people get little bit successful and there's like this tall poppy syndrome that seems to come around and see it with football teams all the time. The pair of Panthers had like a number of successes and then suddenly, you know, everyone wants them to lose despite the fact that they are probably the victims of their own success. Like Blaine, I think for you, like, is there a view in terms of like now you're starting to have this success and And what you're doing, like the belief that you have in your own abilities can be sort of misconstrued. Like I remember having this conversation with Sam Harvey and he sort of said, you know, I want to be the world's best. And everyone was like, ⁓ that's a bit like over the top. But, you know, he's gone out and proven time and time again, he is amongst the world's best. Like for yourself, you're right at the pointy end of this sport. And I don't think your self-belief seems to waver too much. Yeah, I mean that's an interesting one, isn't it? I think you're right. ultra running is a really funny sport because there's a start line and there's a finish line and it's definitely a race, but it can be seen to be a little bit uncool to be too competitive. so, you know, and I think that's because there's a lot of things tied into it. Like there's a lot of things around, you know, the personal growth aspect and the you know, seeing what you're capable of and that's all great stuff and that's stuff that I feel as well but you know, it is still a race and there's still this desire to be competitive and that's one of my favorite parts about it and to deny you know, the fact that I love competing would be to deny something incredibly authentic to myself and sometimes when you show that competitiveness and you show the desire that you want to win and you want to break records and things like that It can be misconstrued as a negative thing, but you know, ultimately you just have to be true to yourself, right? You just have to find what truly motivates you and if that's being competitive or if that's finding more out about yourself, then I think that's okay. I think the key is just to not judge other people and yeah, I don't know. You've got me little bit stumped here. I'm trying to land this plane near 40 but I'm just flying around the airport at the moment. So if anyone wants to jump in and save me right now that'd be great. Yeah, you're doing better than me. Yeah, but you know, tall poppy syndrome, it probably is a thing. think just, yeah, I heard a great saying that tall poppy syndrome is actually one of Australia's best assets because it stops us from becoming America. I think that makes sense. I'm on board with that. But yeah, know, each to their own 40, that's what I say. Like if Sam Harvey wants to come out and wants to be the best in the world and you've got problem with that, then that probably says something more about yourself than it does about Sam Harvey. yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm intrigued to hear it from your perspective, Amber, because I guess in the world of freediving, it potentially is a a bit unknown, but I imagine in some countries this is the sport, this is what people are doing ⁓ and there is quite a viewership of this sport. Yeah, it is interesting because being competitive can also be looked down on in freediving and I know a lot of freedivers think that we shouldn't be competing and that we should just be enjoying being in the ocean and it shouldn't be about the numbers or who can dive the deepest or who can swim the furthest underwater. ⁓ But I've always been in sport, I came from a synchronised swimming background which is an Olympic sport so I have brought that over to freediving whether that's a good or a bad thing. ⁓ Both me and Blaine are probably competitive people. ⁓ I think you need to be, if you want to really push the limits and see what's possible you need that competitive drive and like Blaine said it doesn't mean... It doesn't mean you have to judge anyone else or you can still get along and be good mates with your competitors. ⁓ But at the end of day, the main person you're competing against is yourself and you're trying to do better than what you've done previously. I think that should be the focus. think that's a good way of looking at it. And I think perhaps that sometimes that is the view, particularly in ultra running. But I mean, I look at a couple of the different races. When you're at like King of the Hill for example, Blaine and the type of runners there, looking at the different aspects of the runners, I mean it is the very pointy end of people who are capable of doing the countless Everest I think you guys ended up doing two or three throughout that competition which I just think is just mind boggling but I think it takes a type of person and we're seeing it Timmy Kapraszak at the moment running one kilometer extra every single day. I think there has to be some level of drive. There has to be some level of something within someone to actually want to put themselves out and do these types of sports, whether it be ultra running or whether it be the elite level of freediving. Yeah, and I feel like motivations don't always have to be virtuous. They don't always have to be to better yourself if it's to be competitive and that's okay. The most important thing that your motivation has to be is authentic. And so if you know yourself, you know what drives you, then that's going to help you go a long way. Um, but I was just thinking when you said Timmy Cap and that bloke that's swimming 24 hours, 25 minute pool, I just think, geez, between the three of us and like, God, we know some psychopaths out there. There's this little corner of the world of people that just do stupid stuff, but anyways, it's good fun. It is an interesting view of it as well because like I'm in an office environment now and no one around me is doing this and when you say to people I've done 50k's of running for the week they're just going I haven't even done 50k's this year type of thing like in terms of so it puts in perspective sometimes I think we lose it. being in these circles, how amazing it is what people are doing. Amber, I want to go back to you and I want to sort of talk about drive a little bit because I mean, for now, you've been at the top of two different sports for over two decades and I can't imagine what that sort of does in terms of the want and the pursuit of excellence being at that level for such a long time but what keeps you coming back? What drives you? It has probably just become part of my life now, especially like freediving. I'm a member of a club, I enjoy catching up with my friends and other freedivers every week. yeah, it probably for me isn't so much about winning or records anymore. I mean, sometimes I set my own record and decide that's what I'm going to train for. for the year, but most of the time it's just what I do for fun and what I do in my spare time. Like neither me or Blaine are professional athletes. We both work, so it's just, I think you need to have something in your life other than work. And for me it's free diving and I decided a long time ago that even if I don't... ever get any better, if I don't break any more records, that I'm still gonna keep freediving just because I love it so much. And it just happens to be the way that, yeah, occasionally a record comes within my reach and I decide to have a crack at it. I love that view and Blaine, for yourself, in terms of the drive and I mean, I try and think... and I've spoken to people recently who have been sort of around records and world records and the like and trying to figure out, well, is there some level of expectation now for you each time you sort of step out there? Like when you go back to King of the Hill later this year, is there that sort of thought, well, if I'm not hitting this level that I did last year, like how do you view it? What's the drive? Is the drive sort of wanting to... replicate what you've been able to do and go better or is the drive sort of something different? Yeah, for me the drive is the competition. Like I really like to win. There's other things I'd love to do in the sport. Like I'd love to have cracks at other records and you know I would like to represent Australia one day. But yeah, for now in this particular phase of life I've got two young kids under five as well. It's kind of just, if I can be competitive on the local circuit, ⁓ race the local ultras, ⁓ and then go and try and do something big every year like King of the Hill, then that'll probably be enough for the next couple of years as long as I'm kind of maintaining it. ⁓ But yeah, it's always the same, it's the competition. I race to place quite often, particularly with trail ultras as well. I'm not chasing times, I'm really chasing that win. ⁓ And yeah, it'll be no different going back to Kingly Hill this year. I love it. And when you look at the way that I think those boys have changed the game of Ultrarunning as well, putting up a first place prize of I think $25,000. I mean, it's just, I think if you win UTA, for example, I think it's $1,000. So it's just a game changing type of event. Yeah. I mean, one thing I've actually done the last few years is I've had to draw a line in the sand and decide that I'm only going to race races that are paying out and simply just and that you know each their own I say but simply just because I've you forked so much money and time into sport that if I'm going to compete I just want to get a little bit of incentivization back to bring to my family and so the local alxas I run all pay out and obviously the reason that I'm drawn to King of the Hill is for that prize money. Those guys are also doing great things. Like they're creating a really good community. ⁓ They have great coverage for the athletes. Like my family were up watching the ultra, like the YouTube live stream, like had my grandmas on there watching it. So, you know, they're doing something really great there. And I really appreciate what they're doing for sports. So I'm happy to keep supporting it and hopefully ⁓ Yeah, hopefully take it out this year. Yeah, I love that view and no fear of going back either. Amber, I want to turn to you and you're talking about, you know, neither you or Blaine are professional athletes and everything is sort of happening around what you're doing in work and life. How do you balance it all with your training? Yeah, it's hard. In some years, I prioritize it more than others, usually alternate. Like one year I'm going to focus a bit more on my freediving and another year I might focus a bit more on work. I'm an electrician and I've started working FIFO and mining just so can work two weeks on and then have two weeks off to freedive basically. So that gives me a bit more time than just having the weekends. But yeah, yeah, it's a challenge and I think you just find a way to do it and I think both me and Blaine have probably gotten a lot more efficient in our training and found ways that work for us and we might not be getting the sheer number of hours that some people are getting but yeah, you just have to be as efficient as possible with it and make sure that the hours that you do have really count. Yeah, it's a good way of viewing it I think for sure. What's next? For both of you Blaine, I'll start with you. What's next? What's coming up? I mean, it's probably you've just won Noosa. I mean, what's coming up? Yeah, well I'll race the Gazler again mid-year and see how we go there. And then the A-Race this year is King of the Hill. And I really just, I make a decision year by year on what I'll do. I'm not sure what the goals will look like by the time 2027 comes around, but um... Actually, no, I do have one I want to do I want to do Max Monster out in Alice Springs that big oh yeah, so that's one I've had my arm for a long time. I dragged the drag the kids out to Yeah, Alice Springs and all that and So yeah, that'll be cool But yeah other than that just taking it day by day and amber for yourself. What's on what's on the horizon? I have the freediving pool nationals next weekend in Sydney. it's a pool competition. So just like how many laps you can swim underwater in a swimming pool, which I haven't done in quite a few years. I've been focusing on depth and getting deeper. And so it'll be good to go back into the pool. yeah, know like freediving has progressed quite a lot in Australia since I've been in the pool scene. So I'm sure it's going to be a pretty tough competition. But yeah, not sure not sure what's after that at the moment I committed quite a lot of time to diving deep last year and then so Probably not so much this year. Maybe maybe next year. I'll go away somewhere. That's something completely different. I just I can't imagine People just going to the local pool and just trying to swim laps underwater that whole time is do you have a record? I do Laps under Yeah, so with a mono fin like a mermaid tail I've done 200 meters, so four laps of an Olympic swimming pool and without fins just swimming breaststroke underwater I still hold the Australian record and that's 166 meters What? How much time? Like what's the longest? I'm intrigued now because like in the book there's 17 records Yeah Can you name every record that you have? Oh, I only currently hold a couple of them. So I hold that one for swimming laps underwater, the deepest, which is 85 meters, and then without fins. So like swimming down without fins, which is 68 meters underwater. And then I also have the Guinness World Record for walking underwater. So the longest distance walking underwater. And that's 112. Yeah, yeah, you wear a lot of 112 meters. only rule is that you have to have one foot on the bottom at all times and that you can't breathe, obviously. So it's pretty much the same rules as regular walking, I guess. One foot planted at same time. Completely different. underwater. And I don't know if you answered this, but the longest time you've held your breath underwater. I've held my breath for six minutes, but that's without moving. When I'm diving, it's usually about three, three and a half minutes. Six minutes. There's something for everyone to aspire to. just think that's just absolutely incredible. And I thank you for sharing, Amber, something that's just completely different to this audience. And it's so fun to think you two as siblings and so different, but so similar in so many ways. But the book To The Limit. Blaine, when is it coming out? When can people get their hands on it? I've got the copy, I've loved reading it, April 10th it should be out. Ready to buy, but yeah, all I wanted to say was I've just really loved doing this whole process with Amber, like getting to write the book and then jump on here and talk to you 40 as well. Yeah, it's a special little project, so stoked that we did it, It's very bloody cool and I'll have to get you back on after you. Wayne King of the Hill, Blaine and Amber, this has been so much fun and so different. I've loved every minute of you. Thank you for joining me on the Peak to Zoom podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much.