Miriam Susan: You're listening to the Catholic Wives with Toxic In-Laws podcast. Today's is about how toxic family members need less access, ⁓ and not a sin. Hi, Miriam Susan here. Welcome to today's episode. This is the final installment in the series that I have been doing in the month of March, 2026, all about marital privacy. And today just kind of wraps up the whole thing and really addresses some of these feelings that often come up when we are dealing with toxic family members and when we are considering boundaries or even have put boundaries in place and then... the guilt sets in. And so I aim today to give you Catholic truth and affirm that if you do have to make the very, very difficult choice of going no contact or even just limiting contact, that if you are doing it in a Catholic informed way, then it is not a sin. Now, if you're just cutting people off, just because you're angry, just because you have a blow up or if there's just kind of one thing that pushes you over the probably ⁓ doesn't fall into the category of the things that we're gonna be talking today. So, let me begin. Today I have a reference, instead of a scripture reference for today, it is from the Catholic Catechism. ⁓ And I'm gonna read a brief segment of it first and then as we get into the episode I'm gonna read the whole thing because there are some sticky parts in there that ⁓ that I had to research and I had to really think about how to how to address them because they are difficult and this you know the the whole premise of having toxic family members or difficult or manipulative or controlling is that these are very challenging relationships. And so, you know, lot of our toxic family members act like this is just a knee-jerk reaction that we've had if we limit or go no contact, that they are totally blindsided, that they don't know what they did wrong. When in actuality, pretty much everybody that I've talked to who is dealing with this kind of thing has addressed it over and over and over again. over a period of days, weeks, months, years, decades. I'm in the decades category and there's been no change. And so I want to come at this with that in mind is that if you are listening to this podcast and there was one incident that happened one time between your in-laws and you blew up and you... and your husband went no contact or maybe your husband blew up or whatever and you went no contact, then I would encourage you to really self-reflect, both of you, and look at the situation and see if it actually warrants that kind of reaction on your part. Now, if it was something where there was a threat to life limb or eyesight as so many ⁓ medical professionals have on their recording, I remember that was the thing every time I called the medical clinic on base that was part of the recording. If this is a threat, if you find yourself with a threat to life, limb, or eyesight, please go to your local emergency center and call 911. That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking about one-time blowups because most of us have had symptoms of issues for many, many years. And so, like I said, if that's you, if you've noticed things since, maybe since you first started dating, maybe it was when you first got married or you were engaged and then first got married, or maybe nothing showed up until you started having kids, you're the people that I'm talking to, not the one-off, crazy things that happen and people lose their temper and you just go no contact. Yes, that can happen. Yes, that might be necessary. And yes, some of those situations may fall in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church. But most likely, you are not in that situation and you have been dealing with this for a really long time. And you and your husband have tried to address it with as much love and patience, gentleness and charity that you can. And yet you're still dealing with this and you're still dealing with toxic family members who want way more access than they really need. So let's go ahead and read from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2217. And it says, as long as a child lives at home with his parents, he should obey his parents and all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. And then it continues on, it says, when he becomes an adult, the child acquires new responsibilities. So this is, where the guilt comes in, is when you want more privacy. You want your in-laws to have less access to you and your family. And chances are, somewhere deep down, you're afraid that these desires that you're having make you a bad Catholic, a bad daughter-in-law, maybe even a bad wife. But that's not necessarily the truth. Now the guilt is real and you need to take that seriously because sometimes those feelings of guilt are really, ⁓ know, the Holy Spirit prompting us to self-reflect, to self-examine, to have that examination of conscience that we try to do or we should do every time before we go into confession. So I don't want you to dismiss those feelings. But you need to understand that guilt and truth aren't always the same thing. So just because you feel guilty about something doesn't mean that whatever that thing is, is true. The devil will often use a sense of guilt and shame to trick us into doing things that aren't exactly what God would have us to do. So today's episode is about untangling those two, guilt and truth. So oftentimes, those of us who are in these situations, we have these belief systems, these ⁓ mindsets, if you will. that keep us stuck, that keep us kind of under the thumb of our in-laws and under their control. And when somebody says, family first, that does not mean unlimited access. So the Catholic teaching on family, it honors the new family unit created in marriage, not just the family of origin, because you become a new family. As soon as that mass is done, or before when the priest has united you in marriage, you are immediately a new autonomous, independent, unique family unit. You are not this unit that has been absorbed or is an extension of your respective families of origin. You are an entirely separate entity. Now, charity, when it comes to toxic family members, does not require transparency. You can love someone and still not give them access to your finances. to your arguments, to your parenting choices, to your schooling choices, to where you live, to your job choices. You don't have to give family members access or allow them ⁓ their input that has weight. can listen to their advice. In fact, the catechism actually speaks to that. You can listen to their advice, but you don't have to take it. You don't have to take it. Now obedience in the Catholic teaching that we talked about from that paragraph in the Catechism, it applies to children and their parents' home. But once you and your husband marry, the obligation structure shifts. His first loyalty, with my proper order of a Catholic family, your first obligation, Right here in the middle, God, it's your first obligation. Second is to your spouse. And then third is to your children. That's it. The church teaches this. The church teaches that this is the structure of a properly ordered Catholic family. And everybody else is outside of that. Cousins, parents, friends, coworkers, aunts and uncles. parish members, acquaintances, in-laws, siblings, neighbors, they're not part of your newly formed family unit when you get married. So the question when you are posed this by your in-laws, well, what are you hiding? Why are you keeping secrets? When a person responds to reasonable limit with an accusation rather than respect, need to ⁓ store away as information. Healthy family members are not going to weaponize this concept of secrecy, of privacy against ⁓ you a wife who simply wants to protect their household. The accusation of are you trying to hide? What have you got to hide?" It's designed to make you feel guilty for wanting something that you are entitled to have. ⁓ So why does your having any privacy within your marriage feel threatening to your in-laws in the first place? That's a really, really good question. If you're not sharing everything with your in-laws and you let them know, you know, we're not going to be discussing our financial situation with you, and they come back with saying something, well, what are you trying to hide? Why is that threatening to your in-laws? I'll tell you what it seems like for me and for my husband is that my in-laws wanted an in. They wanted, they were not happy with being outside of this circle. They were not happy with being outside of our family. They wanted an in. So instead of being outside this target symbol of God, spouse, and children of what our focus should be, if our vocation is marriage, They're not happy with that. They want to be inside. And when you start bringing in these characters from the outside, then the order of your family becomes disordered. And so for my in-laws, like I was saying, it felt like when we kept things private, it was like they just wanted more control. Because with more information, it means more opportunities for control. Now, privacy, again, is not the same as being secretive or deceptive. you need to understand that difference. Just like you wouldn't have, let's say, in this scenario, you share a wall with your in-laws. Maybe you live in a duplex and your bedroom is on one side of the wall and your in-law's bedroom or their living room or whatever room is on the other side of the wall. You have a right, you're entitled to privacy within that marital bedroom. You don't put in a window. You don't put in peepholes. You don't put in a camera, video monitor, anything like that that would then broadcast that to your in-laws. Now, I know that's a little bit of an extreme example and who would just gives me the ick to think about. But that's the same thing with a lot of things within your marriage. You don't need to have a window for your in-laws to see how you're feeding your children so that they can have input. They can see how you feed your children. But the idea is that it's being secretive or it's being deceptive or you're trying to hide something when you're just trying to go about your life. You're going to school your children the way you want to school them. You're going to feed your children the way you want to feed them. You're going to dress your children the way you want to dress them. You and your husband are going to deal with your finances and the way that you want to deal with them. You are going to worship in your domestic church the way you want to do it. And when you allow other influences, it starts to break down the trust and the structure of that properly ordered Catholic family. So here is a question that maybe you've been afraid to ask yourself. What would actually change if your in-laws simply had less information about your daily life? What would it change? For you, it would probably mean a whole lot less anxiety, a whole lot less stress. not feeling like you're overwhelmed by their intrusions. But what does it really change for your in-laws? If your in-laws were healthy and they simply just had less information about your life, it should impact them zero. It should have zero impact on them because it's none of their business. So think about that. What would actually change if your in-laws simply had less information about your daily life? And if they are pushing back on that, if they feel like they need more information about your daily life, then you really have to question what their motives are because your daily life should not impact them at all. Even if you are in a situation where Your husband is part of the family business. His job, yes, can impact the family dynamic a bit because he's part of the family business. that doesn't mean that just because your husband's part of the family business, it doesn't mean that your in-laws get to dictate and see and have full ⁓ ⁓ anything else that's going on with your life. There has to be separation, especially if your husband, maybe you too as well, are working for the toxic or ⁓ demanding, challenging family members. There has to be a separation. Otherwise, are ⁓ even really truly living vocation of your marriage? because part of that vocation of your marriage is to leave your father and mother and cling to your wife as a husband, cling to your husband. So now let's get into something that's ⁓ more challenging and one that I had to do a little bit of digging and research and really thinking about how triggering this is for those of us who have you know, toxic family members, triggering for our husbands who hear scriptures and hear catechisms and hear homilies all about the responsibilities of adult children towards their parents. So the church itself acknowledges that the adult child's relationship with his parents is different, is different from when they were a child. New responsibilities come up. The old structure of a parent-child authority does not simply carry forward into married life unchanged. It's different. And the Catechism makes a distinction about that. So let me go ahead and read this in its entirety because it is important to understand. So it says, Chapter 2217 says, as long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. So just that saying children obey your parents and everything for this pleases the Lord. That is from Ephesians. Children should also obey the reasonable directions of their teachers. and to all whom their parents have entrusted them. But if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so. So that's where, this is my commentary now. So that's where if you have highly toxic, abusive parents as a child and your highly toxic or abusive parents are telling you to go rob the store, or go steal from a neighbor or go to do things that is, you know, something that the child is convinced in his conscience that it would be wrong to do, then they don't have to do it. All right, let me continue. As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice and accept their just admonitions. Obedience towards parents ceases with the emancipation of the children, but not so respect, which is always owed them. This respect has its roots and the fear of God, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now, if you are like me and you are like my husband, that's a little bit hard. And so I'm going to some other ⁓ from Catechism of the Catholic Church that can help explain how those of us who have toxic or abusive family members can can possibly interpret this. again I need to quant- you know say, I need to state that I am not a you know any kind of expert by any stretch of the imagination on the catechism and its interpretation or even its application. So take all this with a grain of salt. I encourage you to dig through this to to do your own research, to talk to your priest about how these paragraphs and how these words apply to your specific situation. And again, you have to give whoever you're talking about this with the whole picture. You can't just tell them that, you you cut off contact with your in-laws and you just don't know. You have to give them the context so that this priest or this, you know, religious can, you know, brother or sister can really help you discern what is the right thing for you and your family to do. And I do want to say that my husband did and has sought out counsel from at least three priests, a religious brother, a friend who basically would be a religious brother, except that he's married from countless friends, from therapists, and they have all affirmed that the steps that we had to take to protect our family were the steps that we needed to take. And I want to clarify that the interpretations that I'm going to give, I'm doing my best to give them from a Catholic perspective, not a Protestant one. Okay. and that we need to remember that you are not sinning by wanting to protect your household, even from your own parents or your husband's parents. And we need to consider one of the four cardinal virtues of prudence and use that prudence to know who deserves access and to what. So when we are looking at this chapter, this paragraph rather, of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and it says, children should respect their parents. Yes, absolutely. Now, what does that mean? Well, Father Mike Schmitz did a really good video about these levels of respect that are owed to people. The first level of respect is that of general respect that we are called to have for every human being because they are made in God's image. So we are to, as Catholics, we are to respect every man, woman, child who exists as fellow human beings. That is something that we owe to them. The second level of respect has to do with the role a person has. So our priests, are due a certain level of respect because of their role as priests. We are supposed to respect our parents in the same way. This is not talking at all about whether they were good parents, bad parents, abusive, supportive and loving. No, we are supposed to offer them and give them our respect as our parents as the role that God put them in our lives. So for whatever reason, God gave you the parents and the in-laws that you have. And they are deserving of that second level of respect because of that position, that ⁓ role that they ⁓ in our Now the third level of respect is not one that is owed. It is simply the next level of respect. And that is a level of respect that we give to people who have earned it. So let's say you have a wonderful uncle. He was like a father figure to you in your life. You give him levels one, two, and three of that kind of respect. You seek out his advice. You seek to help him just like maybe he did for you as a child. That is a different level of respect. And let's say you have another uncle who was very toxic, very abusive, very hateful and ugly towards you for your entire life. You are not called to give him that third level of respect. The first one, yes. because he's a human being. The second one, yes, because he is an uncle in your life. But the third one is not owed to him because he has not earned it. So even when we have toxic and difficult in-laws, we can still respect them. We can respect the role that they had in raising our husbands. We can be grateful that they gave him whatever good things that they gave him because most people are not, you know, bad or evil through and through. Some people are, seems, but not everybody is. And so even the most toxic of people usually have some good things that they have done in their lives. Whether that was the motive for them doing it or not, that doesn't matter. But we can show them respect for those kinds of things. Okay. Now this next sentence. is a little bit tricky. This sentence says, they should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice and accept their just admonitions. And this is as adult children with your parents. Now, this is hard because the idea that I need to anticipate my in-laws wishes and willingly seek their advice and accept their just admonitions is very... ⁓ Repulsive is probably the easiest word. That's the first one that comes to mind is repulsive. ⁓ But I have to read that in context with the entire catechism. We cannot pull out a paragraph here and there and use it as a blanket statement because that's not how it's designed. Just like you don't pick out one scripture and say, you know, well, this is what Jesus meant for You have to take it in context with the entire scripture, with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Everything has to be thought of and analyzed and considered with the whole of scripture, the whole of Catholic teaching. Okay, so we're not cherry picking. So when I read things like this, that I should... know, children should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. The first thing that jumps out at me is just admonitions. Are the admonitions that you are receiving from your in-laws actually just? Or are they selfishly imposed? Those are things to consider. And when we think about this, we can go back and look in the catechism for kind of like stipulations. So when, and this is something that I have found, I don't have a specific reference, but I've seen it written over and over and over again, is that when a parent does not, in a sense, hold up their end of the bargain, then we as adult children, don't necessarily have to ⁓ do everything as they would want us to do. Because when parents are abusive, when they are they kind of forfeit their right to be treated ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ not generic, but these foundational teachings ⁓ ⁓ if they were a healthy parent for you as a child. Again, I have to keep coming back to this is my interpretation based on what I have done in reading and I encourage you to check and double check this ⁓ on your own to see if this lines up for you as well. So the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1789 says, Charity always proceeds by way of respect for one's neighbor and his conscience. So if we are doing things for our in-laws and we kind of see them as an act of charity, but it is not respectful for them and is damaging for their conscience, then we should not do it. That's not really charity. Charity has to respect our neighbor, in this case, our toxic in-laws, and it has to respect their conscience. Then the Catholic Catechism, 1756, says, one may not do evil so that good may result from it. This was an interesting one because it seems that a lot of the things that my in-laws have done is kind of the end justifies the means. Like, yes, we're stalking you, but it means that we got a chance to see you. Yes, we were stalking you and harassing you and showing up in places that you didn't want us to, but it meant that we got to make sure that you were okay. That goes directly against this teaching from the Catechism. You don't do evil even if the end result is good. You can't do that. That's not how it works. And then in the chapter 2230 Catechism says, when children become adults, they have the right and duty to follow their conscience in fulfilling their vocation. Now what does that mean? Well, what is your vocation? Your vocation is as a wife. And adults, parents of adult children... have to respect that their adult children have the right and duty to follow their conscience in fulfilling their vocation. So, fulfilling your vocation as a husband or as a wife means protecting your family unit. It means protecting your marriage. It means protecting your ⁓ And if you happen to ⁓ toxic in-law or a toxic parent and your adult child says I can't have contact with you because you're hurting my marriage, you're hurting my children, you're impacting the mental health and physical health of my wife, then the parents have to respect that because the adult child is permitted and is told by Catholic teaching that they have a right and a duty to follow their conscience in fulfilling their vocation. So when we see these words, these guidelines for our lives as adult children and we see that we should anticipate the wishes of our toxic in-laws and willingly seek their advice and accept their just admonitions, we have to understand that because they are toxic, because their wishes are sinful, their advice is self-serving and their admonitions are an effort to control, That's when we fall back on, we have the right and duty to follow our consciences to fulfill our vocation. Fulfilling our vocation has to come before indulging the sinful whims of toxic people, no matter who they are, even if they are our parents. Now, so what does this look like? Because we still have to show our parents respect. And sometimes the most respectful thing that ⁓ we can do for our in-laws is to go no contact. Sometimes it is. As unfortunate as that is, sometimes that is. Sometimes the most respectful and charitable thing we can do is to close the door and not allow them access to things that they should not have access to. Sometimes that's the case. When we have toxic dynamics in play, a lot of the guidelines that are listed in this Catechism Reference 2217, so these guidelines are with the assumption that the parents are fulfilling their obligations, that they are kind and loving and they are gently trying to be the positive influence that they can towards their adult children, but that they're also staying outside where they belong of, you know, this design as a proper order of a Catholic family. If your in-laws are not... keeping up their part of the bargain. If they're not allowing you or your husband to leave. then they forfeit their right to expect these kinds of kindnesses and this kind of charity from you. as the Catechism teaches. You cannot violate part of God's design and God's law for families and then expect that the benefits will then come to you. Like I said, we can still respect and honor and pray for our in-laws even if we don't have an active speaking relationship with them. We can love them from afar. We can pray for them from afar. We can honor them by being good spouses. ⁓ We can honor them by loving God, serving Him in every way that we possibly can, by trying to raise our children so that they can get to heaven. And we can also honor our in-laws by not allowing them access to things that they shouldn't have access to because of their own sinful desires. That allows them to not be open to that near occasion of sin. If you have shut a door to give your marriage some privacy, even though it's one that your in-laws want open, that is honoring to them because it is honoring to their soul. If we keep the door open so that our in-laws can continue to sin against us, not only is it harming us, but it's harming them and hurting their chances to get into heaven. And I don't think any of us want that, even as difficult as our relationships are with our toxic in-laws. I think if you ask, depending on where you are in the spectrum of healing, I don't think any of us will get to the point where we would say that we don't want our in-laws in heaven. because I mean, that's a horrible fate to not be in heaven. So I hope this makes sense. hope that... ⁓ listening to this and understanding how guilt, how manipulation can really change how you see things ⁓ and that impacts your family. It really impacts your privacy, but it really impacts ⁓ how you're able to move forward, how you're able to live your life. day to day with your family. ⁓ Because these relationships are so hard. ⁓ ⁓ seems like at times that the motivation ⁓ all this toxicity, this demanding, this deceit, manipulation, whatever you want to call it, ⁓ is to distract us from fulfilling our vocation. When we are spending all this energy trying to make our in-laws happy who might never be happy. It prevents us from number one, growing with our relationship with the Lord. Number two, from having a good solid marriage because there become, you know, there's trust issues that comes in, that come in if you're constantly trying to make your in-laws happy and your husband's kind of walking that line, he's kind of straddling it and sometimes leans towards making mom and dad happy and then that breaks your trust and then there's issues within your marriage. And then the children. The children are most often the innocent bystanders because they didn't ask to be born into this kind of chaos, but yet here they are. And they see the stress, they see how, know, mommy's very anxious whenever the grandparents are around, and it affects them tremendously. So what I want to close with is letting you know that you do not have to earn the right to privacy in your marriage. It already belongs to you. You don't have to earn it. You are already owed a level of privacy simply by being a unique, autonomous, independent family with you and your husband and any children that God has given you. if this has resonated with you, want to, number one, invite you to the Catholic Wives Plus Toxic In-Laws community at ToxicInLaws.com. have been, you know, this is the topic for the month and I'm kind of doing the whatever the topic is on the podcast, that's the topic in the group. And that's what we're talking about this month marital Inside that group, it is ⁓ a but group ⁓ of Catholic just like you who are dealing with these kinds of situations. And so if you want to find a space where you feel less alone, where you don't feel isolated anymore, then I invite you to join at ToxicInLaws.com. Now, this month, March 31st, I am hosting a live workshop. If you missed last week's episode, I talked about how I don't really like to do live workshops because it is ⁓ very emotionally and mentally exhausting for me. You I am still in this healing process from, you know, nearly three decades of chronic stress and My body does not handle adrenaline very well and I usually get bursts of adrenaline when I do live workshops. So I try not to do them. But I really feel like this is such an important topic that I am going to host a live workshop on privacy called the Private Family Masterclass. And this is going to be about three different levels of privacy that you need to be aware of and possibly working towards depending on how your situation is with your in-laws. Now your in-laws might not be as intrusive as mine are and praise God if they are not. So the beginning, the first two levels are probably going to apply to probably 99 % of you. And then there's the other 1 % and that's where I will go into deeper levels of privacy where, you know, maybe it involves legal action, maybe it involves private investigators, those kinds of things. This training is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on my podcast. It is my experience, my husband's experience, insights into how we live our lives. And we live our lives very differently than most people because of the intrusions that we've had on our marriage for 30 years from my in-laws. So. If you are interested in learning more about this masterclass, workshop, whatever you want to call it, go to desiringpeace.com forward slash workshop. That's desiringpeace.com forward slash workshop to find out more about this paid live workshop. Now it is paid if you are, you know, watching this on YouTube or listening on Spotify, it is a paid ⁓ class that I will be doing now. Members of the Catholic Wives plus Toxic In-Laws community will get ⁓ discount on price of admission. ⁓ And if are a premium member, which right now the premium membership is only $17 a month, you will get access to live masterclass for free. But you have to join before March 31st so you get in there and you can get your link ⁓ and get access it. But I just felt like this was really important and I wanted to honor those women who are members of my community and give them a little bit of special treatment to get access to this class for a discounted price. Now like I said you can join the community. The community part is absolutely free so if you want to save a little money on this master class go to ToxicInLaws.com and join the community you will get information on how to claim your discount for this private family masterclass that I will be hosting. So God bless you. I know this is so hard and sometimes even thinking about having a sense of privacy if you're in-laws, ⁓ if you feel like you're swimming around in a fish bowl and they have access to everything that you do and say, this feels really scary. It feels scary to think about putting up some blinders, know, closing some doors. But like I said at the end, ⁓ you have every right to privacy in your marriage. That's the way God intended. And so I hope that this podcast has ⁓ enlightened you and given you the courage to seek out privacy if you feel like you don't really have it right now. God bless you. Go in peace.