Jason Magennis: Welcome to Youth Sports United. I'm your host, Jason McGinnis. I'm a certified high-performance coach who works with executives, entrepreneurs, and athletes to unlock their potential through self-transformation that addresses the barriers to achieving their ultimate goals. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Youth Sports United. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do so is to subscribe, leave a rating or review, and share your favorite episodes with friends and parents dedicated to creating healthy sporting cultures for our kids. If you'd like to learn more about my coaching practice, head over to jasonmagennis.com/coaching Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next time on Youth Sports United. Brian, Jeff, welcome. On today's episode, I chat with Jeff DeWall and Brian Conklin, two of the three partners in Playmakers USA. Situated in West Lynn, Oregon, Playmakers USA is a community-based youth sports program focused on helping young athletes grow on and off the field. Their objective is simple, deliver a program that creates a pathway to personal growth for their athletes by integrating educational components that help build well-rounded individuals. I'm excited to welcome a new sponsor to Youth Sports United. Today's episode is brought to you by Bearwear. As a coach, host of this pod, and a dad to a 12 year old, I spend a lot of time thinking about what really supports kids as they grow through sport. We talk a lot about growth, confidence, mindset, teamwork, but the truth is, so much of a kid's experience also happens around the game. Early mornings, long days at tournaments, Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Thanks for having us. Jeoffrey De Waele: How you doing? Jason Magennis: Good, good. Thanks for being here. I really appreciate you joining us here on U Sports United, and I'm excited to talk more about Playmakers USA. So for those listening at home who might not be familiar with what you all are doing, can you give kind of an overview of what Playmakers USA is, where you're located, and kind of little more behind the why in this type of organization which you've created? I'm also a youth baseball coach, and over the last few years, I've observed the negative impact team cultures focused on winning can have on kids' self-esteem and enjoyment of the game. My goal is to create a community of parents and coaches dedicated to enriching the youth sports experience and building environments where growth, development, teamwork, and fun are as valued as performance. the car rides, the snacks, the routines that keep everything moving. As parents, we're juggling a lot. We want to fuel our kids properly, help them build healthy habits and model good choices without adding more stress to already busy days. During this conversation, Brian, Jeff and I discussed Playmaker USA's focus on fun and skill development and how it plays a crucial role in removing the stress from youth sports. We discussed the importance of establishing a love of sport first instead of jumping immediately into pressure-filled situations with young athletes. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, do you, ⁓ go ahead. Do you want to take part of that, Brian? could. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: No, I'll definitely take a couple of those. The why I think is probably where we should start. Why is youth sports gotten to where it's gotten? I think we all saw a need for our children to grow up in a healthier environment around sport. Jeoffrey De Waele: Okay. Jason Magennis: On Youth Sports United, I speak to a variety of experts in the youth sports world about how we as parents and coaches can create positive, development-focused sports cultures that accelerate our kids' growth as people, not just players. That's why I want to take a moment to share a brand I genuinely respect and use as a sports parent. Bear aware. Avoiding this pressure early on keeps kids playing longer and leads to better outcomes. We also discussed the role of parents in creating healthy sport cultures, how to innovate to create fun sporting environments, and how focusing on enjoyment and participation early builds the foundation for long-term athletic success. Bearwear was created by a fellow parent who saw a simple but real problem. Plastic lunch gear just doesn't hold up to real family life. It breaks, it leaks, it stains, and frankly, it doesn't always align with the values many of us are trying to teach our kids about caring for their bodies and the world around them. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: You know, especially in America, we talk about children are getting obese. Children are sitting in front of games too often. No one's getting outside. You know, we talk about the good old days. I used to be outside until the lights came on, you know, then I ran in for dinner. Kids don't want to get outside because there's not a healthy relationship with sport anymore. And I think that comes with the pressures to perform and the pressure to compete at a high level. But these children are not we're not talking about a high level. We're talking about Jason Magennis: And let's be clear, I'm not against competition or winning. I feel both enrich the youth sports experience. However, I am against winning at all costs. I believe that when we prioritize growth and development, embrace mistakes as part of the process, and create fun team environments, winning becomes the outcome of the positive habits we're teaching. Bearwear makes durable, plastic-free stainless steel lunchwear that's designed for real kids and real schedules. It's the kind of gear that survives backpacks, locker rooms, long practices, and full days at school. No gimmicks, just thoughtfully designed products that make it easier to pack real food and build consistent routines. There's a lot here to help coaches, parents, and youth sport administrators think differently about the experiences we're creating for our kids. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: introduction to sport and kids are on pitch counts and kids are, you know, getting rings given to them and we saw a healthy need for a change, especially in our environment, but in a whole, the environment as a whole. Jason Magennis: What I appreciate most is that bear aware isn't about perfection. It's about progress, small practical choices that help families support healthy development physically, mentally and environmentally without adding pressure. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, and Jason just to kind of address the first part of that. So we sort of came together for our origin story here ⁓ is for all those reasons that know, Brian just mentioned. you know, we're fairly like we're young parents, right? Brian and I and also Tony. Tony and I, ⁓ who's not here today, but he's you know, he's the other founding partner of the company. And he and I kind of came together in the beginning. It's kind of funny. We were playing in like this this men's slow. Jason Magennis: If you're curious to check them out, Bearwear is offering our listeners 15 % off. Go to shopbearwear.com, that's shop, B-A-R-E, W-A-R-E.com, and use the code SPORTS15 at checkout to save 15 % on your order. Offer available in Canada only. We're proud to have Bearwear supporting Youth Sports United. Jeoffrey De Waele: pitch softball beer league type thing, right? And this is a couple of years ago. And he and I, were kind of trading, you know, sort of complaint stories about the state of use sports and both our kids were just fairly new to sports. I think my son at the time was probably like seven or eight and he was just getting into like soccer and basketball. And we were just kind of going back and forth and we're sort of like making jokes about like, you know, yeah, the other day, you know, this parent showed up and they were like super crazy at practice and Jason Magennis: and the work we're doing to promote positive growth-oriented experiences for young athletes and their families. Jeoffrey De Waele: The coaches like, you know, trying to coach these kids like they're trying to get them ready for like the NBA and you know, it's like a military style, you know, approach to things. we're just, you know, we're just laughing like, hey, what if you and I just like, we just started our own sports league, you know, what if we just started, we just, controlled the scheduling, we controlled the coaches, we controlled the league and we kind of dialed this whole thing down a little bit and made it less of a pressurized situation for these kids, right? So that they can actually like, learn to love sports rather than hate it in the beginning, right? Because all we're trying to do with kids is really in the beginning, it's kind of a sales game, right? We're trying to sell them on why they should spend their time playing sports instead of sitting in front of like an iPad or screen or something like that, right? And some kids are gonna naturally gravitate towards sports because they're athletic, ⁓ you know, they're just gonna like it. But then for the most part, most of the kids are gonna be on the fence, right? Those are the kids that are gonna be like, ⁓ you know, I'm okay at it. You know, but my friends play it, so I want to kind of follow them and I want to hang out with them. And really that's kind of like the mass majority of our, of our market that we're dealing with is kids that are kind of on the fence there, right? The elite kids are going to go far there. You that's going to happen. That's, that's sort of, of, of, of a certainty, but the rest of them are going to kind of stay there in the middle. And we have to really convince those kids that are in the middle, you know, that this is something that they should invest their time in. Right. And, and to your point earlier, Jason, like we're trying to build. healthy habits, we're trying to ⁓ build productive citizens that eventually grow on to be professionals in society. And we're trying to do it through the vehicle of sport, right? In the beginning, because there's so many analogies and metaphors and parallels that you can draw between youth sports and life, right? And just sports in general in life, right? Work hard and good things happen in life. And that's kind of what happens in sports, right? So, you that's kind of sort of the message and... you know, and the the philosophy that we kind of put together and Tony and I were on the same page with this and we're like, you know, we have to change this because a lot of these coaches and parents are totally unaware of what they're doing when they go out there and they're coaching. It's almost like they take on a different persona when they're out there. And I was listening to one of your previous podcast, Jason, and you were talking to somebody and the person you're interviewing, they were talking about how You know, business professionals go to work every day and they're people leaders and they're leading companies and fortune 500 companies. And they have these really important roles in business. But all of sudden, when they get on a basketball court and you know, they're in front of like a hundred parents, they completely lose their minds. And they just like become, you know, they're trying to become like coach K or Mike or Phil Jackson, or, know, one these NBA style coaches out there. And it's like, dude, you don't have to be that like that. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: That's not what we're about here. We're just trying to get kids to have fun and fall in love with sports and then continue to play So it's like, you know, we're I'm trying we're trying to get kids not necessarily to love it their first year We're just trying to get them not to hate sports their first year because we think the love is gonna come if they continue to play but in the beginning, know, they're gonna be very skeptical about it, so ⁓ You know, that's kind of a long explanation of what happened but you know to to kind of sum it up like, you we really put this thing together because we wanted to change how youth sports is being presented to kids, particularly in our area here too. It's a small kind of a ⁓ bedroom community of Portland, but it's a very close knit market here. ⁓ you know, the community here is so small that if you have a couple bad apples out there, they're not going to go away. They're going to continuously stay in the system. You know, these bad coaches will be there ⁓ and they're going to continue to sort of perpetuate the cycle. And if you're, you know, if you're in it, you know, you can either try to change it or you can, or you can sit by and be sort of a bystander and watch it. ⁓ And we kind of took the approach where we said, Hey, we want to change this and we want to, we want to be ⁓ active in it. And we want to really ⁓ reposition how sports is being presented to youths right now. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: in our community. Jason Magennis: Yeah. And I think that's where the power in all this really lies is that the early outcome that you all have set for the, the participants and the kids going through your program is about building that love of sport and building that enjoyment and starting with that foundation of, you know, fun teamwork, development, all that stuff versus throwing them right into pressure cooking winner. Jeoffrey De Waele: else. Jason Magennis: winners take all situations, right? the data out there, Greg Dunn is the gentleman you were referring to, Jeff, and there's so much data out there on the lingering impact of those early impressions and how that can steer. It's like almost when kids get to that 13, 14 year old age range. A fork comes in the road and it's, they going to stick with sports and continue to make a part of their life, which then leads to, you know, all types of benefits down the road or do they drop it because they've had bad experience and they don't, they don't love it anymore. So I just, I think it's such an important way to think about those early years and, and establishing that strong foundation for them to then build that love of sport from. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, absolutely. And just to kind of put a statistic there, and I was looking at, was doing some research the other day and it's amazing because if you're talking about boys youth basketball, the percentage of youth kids that will go on to play high school is about 15%. So, you know, I'm a numbers guy, right? I'm a probability guy. And I look at that and I'm like, okay, he's probably not going to play at the high school level. But does that mean that he can't build solid foundation? Does that mean he can't build real world skills that he can bring with him into the next level as he matures as an adult? Yeah, mean, absolutely. That's what we're kind of aiming for here. That's what we're trying to do. And then if you further extrapolate that stat out, of the 15 % that'll play at the high school level, roughly 3 % are going to go to play at an NCAA level. So that's, mean, so the odds are even stacked more against them to even go on from there to play it. But like I was saying, you know, at that point we would have hoped to got to these kids and to help them build a healthy foundation for living a healthy lifestyle, right? You know, exercising, eating better, you know, regularly working out, you know, taking care of yourself, limiting the screen time, you know, all these things that are contributing, those are skills that they're going to carry with them throughout the rest of their life. Teamwork building, know listening to coaches listening to people that are giving you advice, you know, all these all these other skills That they're gonna take with them, you know So and not not to say that we're trying that we're not hoping that that an athlete goes and plays a high school level and at the college level I think that's gonna naturally organically happen because they're good athletes to begin with they have the physical characteristics They jump high they run fast. They're strong Those are the, they're going to naturally progress through the system. But, you know, like I was mentioning earlier with the ones that maybe don't have those skills and don't have those gifts, you know, what can we give them that they can take with them, you know, regardless of your, of your skill set. And, and those are the, the, the things that we're really trying to enforce and, and, and, and try to, ⁓ you know, indoctrinate them with is those types of skills. So, you know, Jason Magennis: Yeah, and you know, that's one thing that I think is is really innovative about the model that you've built is that when, when I look at the model, you know, there's that, you know, what we discussed this idea of building that foundation from the ground up. but then there's also an opportunity as kids grow and develop for them to move into more elite streams and get more coaching that will send them a more of an elite path. A if that's what the kid wants and B, if it's an opportunity for them based on all the factors she talked about. So I'm curious, how did you guys land on that model of starting with the foundation you described, but then it kind of branches out as the kids grow and develop? Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Well, Jason, I think it really kind of started with, like we said, the fun aspect, but myself and my background being a 13 year pro basketball, I'm one of Jeff's outliers. We just talked about numbers. So myself coming into the fold, coming into the company, being part of it, I give it the ability to progress through the levels that it needs to progress. And But I know that it starts with a grassroots level of the love of the game. My first love of the game was watching Arvita Sabonis at eight years old be seven foot three, 350 pounds, moving like a ballerina, dropping passes like Jokic does today. Like that was an impression for me for basketball. And it just so happened that I was playing basketball for the first time eight years old. And that's a memory that I have, but that's where love started for me. So I know it starts really young, but then like Jeff and you guys have mentioned that you have to start with love, but then you facilitate, how do I persevere through adversity? How do I listen to different coaches? How do I tell my parents, I want to go outside and work out. I don't want to sit inside all day. Like, oh, there's a little bit of sunshine. Let me grab my ball. Those are things that. The kid is gonna have to do to make it to that next level to get outside of that 15 % that only make it in high school, 3 % that make it in college, right? But as a parent, you can't make your child be a part of that percentage. There's only a certain amount of parents that can buy their way into that. And we do see it nowadays, especially with a lot of these MBA kids, you MBA parents that are getting their kids into certain levels, but they're gonna fizzle out. There's not that love and that base. So the model was, have fun. Then myself being at a high level that I've played, we can see who wants more, who's the child that, wow, they really have a little bit of something to themselves. And so then you can reach out to the parents and maybe the parents have already reached out to you. As we know, parents are very involved in their children's sports lives. So they'll reach out and they'll say, hey, you know. Jason Magennis: You Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: we're kind looking for little more competition and I can go, great, your child's already been earmarked for that actually, this is what we've decided to do. And we did throw a couple of tournament teams together this year for our fourth grade boys and our third grade girls and third grade boys. And it wasn't. to be on the tournament level so that we could put our chests around and walk around town and say, we have a select team. You know, because that's what everybody wants to do. They want to go to the dinner party with their friends and say, little Johnny made the select team. It's not about that. It's about the child learning, whoa, this is what kids down in. Wilsonville this is how they play. This is how a team from Salem. This is how these kids play Wow And so they get immersed and they get out of their bubble because we're all we all are in our little bubbles in our neighborhoods But then when a child finally sees that's how these kids act and that's how they play ⁓ I'm allowed to play like that. ⁓ it's okay to be aggressive on the basketball court stuff There's a coach you could tell them day in and day out they don't realize but it's gonna take Jason Magennis: Mmm. ⁓ Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: You putting them in into an environment for that kind of that gene or that scenario to get activated for them to go Okay. Now I want more and that's what you want You want them to have the fun first? But then you want them to chase the more until like we said they're gonna get to a fork in the road and they're gonna either want to continue to chase that more or they don't and you've hopefully fostered an environment they want to chase it to as far as they can take it but then If they don't take it to the highest professional level, that's not a failure Because now we're talking about when you're an adult, you can go to a rec league. Tony and Jeff started with a softball league because they had the skills to play baseball softball. And so they were able to meet each other and start a company. Myself, having retired from basketball, I still play rec league with all my buddies in the 30 and over league. I think we should be 18 and over because I can still get it done. But. Jason Magennis: Mm-mm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: But the guys want to do 30 and over and that's fine. It's not about me in the competition anymore. I want to see the guys around me. I want us all have fun. We have our group chat. We want to talk about so-and-so fell flat on his face, you know, but we all have the skills to play basketball that we grew the love of the game, then continue to learn the skills and we just, it's a community. That's what we're trying to build and that's the healthiness of sports that I think that we can give. Jason Magennis: Haha, love it. So there's so much coming up for me based on what you just said, Brian, because ⁓ as I listened to you walk through that, it's hard for me not to compare it to the hockey journey here in Canada, right? Like hockey is our national sport and frankly, in a lot of communities, it's a way of life. And so I think about how with hockey in particular, sometimes we get it in reverse as to what you just described. So there is... Jeoffrey De Waele: So. Jason Magennis: such desire and pressure for these kids to succeed. And so we're talking, you know, eight you, seven you, nine you, triple A teams that are traveling all over the place. ⁓ You know, and I'm sure you guys have read the book, ⁓ Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. So I've interviewed Roger Barnsley. Jeoffrey De Waele: Mm-hmm. Jason Magennis: who is featured in that book. was his research that was all about the relative age effect and Canadian hockey players. How when you're born in Jan-Fed March, you start out a bit bigger, all these things. so Roger and I, a lot of what we've talked about is, know, so these kids are bigger. They get placed on these higher level teams early. They're getting more practice. They're getting more opportunity. So they're developing quicker. Jeoffrey De Waele: . Jason Magennis: ⁓ all because of a privilege that just happened to be because of where their birthday fell. And meanwhile, all these other kids have kind of gotten left out because they didn't have the same qualities at that early age. And where I think the system misses it is we're not giving them all equal opportunity to build that foundation and that fun and all the same amount of practice and experience to grow together. Jeoffrey De Waele: . Jason Magennis: And then, you know, a little bit further down the line, start thinking about, well, how do we bring this group into ⁓ a select level? How do we bring them into a triple A level and so on? And then the trickle down effect of that is, is you get these kids who are playing at this high level, feeling immense pressure, losing joy for the game. And you know, that, that pivotal point comes and they're like, shit, I don't want to keep doing this anymore. It's not worth it. And so. Jeoffrey De Waele: Okay. So Jason Magennis: That's why I think what you just described is so fascinating is because you're starting with that equal baseline for everyone, giving them all the opportunity to learn and develop and grow and get that experience. And then as kids develop, they can then get funneled into these different streams where it matches their ability a bit more or their desire a bit more. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Yeah, I mean, and you're totally right. And I guess I want to touch again on the equal opportunity is when I say we started that third grade select team, we actually had a first grader on that team. We had a couple of second graders on that team. It's not we're going to pick the best third graders available. We just want if a child is advanced, this is your opportunity. We have kids in just our regular rec league. There are six seventh grader playing down against fourth graders. but it's their first time playing basketball, which is amazing. Every time we, I would say 30 to 40 % of our league is kids saying, or parents saying, we signed little Johnny up because this is their first year. They wanted to play the sport, their friends have played the sport, we've seen your league, we want them to play. So that's awesome. This is your first time playing? We don't care that you're a seventh grader. You can come compete with the fourth graders because guess what? The fourth grader that's played three years of basketball and the seventh grader that's only playing in their first year, they're going to be on the same level height and maturity wise. They will not be. But also I have a fourth grade son who's five foot ten. So he was totally fine in the league. But it's it's it's not about like you're not worried about somebody getting hurt. You're worried about them having fun. You're worried about them running around and being able to be coached and work and. That's what it is. It's equal opportunity regardless of your age regardless We had our first grade we had our second grade girls playing against first grade boys for one of our seasons It doesn't matter girls versus boys. It's okay. It's the competition It's getting out the girls learned how to be a little bit more aggressive by the end of that six-week season They were beaten up on the second grade boys, right? It's just it's a flip of the mindset where It's not girls versus boys. It's not a seventh grader versus a fourth grader. It's kids being active and you hope that you have the right people in place to be able to, you know, we take it. take it to ourselves to really put these rosters together and put together the competition so that everyone's on equal playing field. We stop the scoreboard, there's no 30, 40 point wins, right? We want the score, you don't need to see that on the scoreboard. We try to avoid those games. One, mentality wise, that's not good for the children. But two, who cares if you won your third grade basketball game by 45 points? You're gonna send it into your mom text group one time and then you're gonna forget about it. But why make that first initial effort? Just go have fun. See the smile on your child's face. There's not gonna be a lot of smiles if they look up at the scoreboard and they're down by 40. Right? So I love that, like you're saying, like, I guess it just organically came that it's equal opportunity because we just see sport as an ability to get out and play and be active. So it never was about ⁓ starting people on the same ground level. It just was, hey, here's a platform. to just go have fun, learn some skills, make some friends, follow a, like Jeff said, maybe not a military style schedule, which I can admit, my practices maybe got a little bit too much like that, but you know, they can get towards just being coached and being able to follow, hey. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: This is an hour, I've got you for an hour. We're not gonna interrupt while the coach is talking. You're not in a business meeting interrupting the CEO when they talk. It's a life lesson. You can learn that at fourth grade. You can learn that at third grade. It's okay to tell the child, hey, I'm talking. Wait until I'm done, raise your hand. I mean, we should be doing that in schools too. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just, I think it's just such a great trickle effect, trickle down effect and so beneficial for these kids to be put into a situation like you just described. And you know, your colleague, Erica, her and I were talking about this offline, but it's so interesting that, you know, to examine your model through the lens of the Norwegian ⁓ youth sports model, which is beginning so much press right now with the winter Olympics and how well Norway does. And you I read about it probably about six months ago in a book by Steve Magnus, who's a great running coach who I followed for years. And what's so fascinating with their model is it mimics a lot of what's made you guys so successful in that Norwegian kids all start out at the same level, all just playing what variety of sports interests them. And there's no opportunity for them to specialize in a sport. I think until they're 13. So, know, contrast that against, you know, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, where eight you, you've got your kid out there gunning for a triple A team. And it's just, it's so fascinating because they truly are building that love of sport and love of movement. And they're figuring out what works for them. And you can't argue with their success. They've been, you know, beyond just the Olympic world and the winter Olympics. You know, you look at triathlon. You look, you know, Victor Hovland, top 10 golfer. have, think the number two golfer in the world is from Norway or sorry, number two tennis player from the world is from Norway. It, it, the model works. Right. And I think it's so interesting because Eric and I were chatting, you know, off the air that this is, you know, kind of a parallel to what you guys are offering kids in, Oregon. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: You're right and it was funny that you mentioned that ⁓ Norwegian model because I hadn't really heard about that until the press it's getting recently and It's interesting Malcolm Gladwell was one of my favorite authors especially for the outliers and I would be interested to see in that 10,000 hours how much of that concentration happens after 13 years old, right? I don't know if that was mentioned in the book but that would be a really cool study actually because it goes off of what we're talking about if a child Jason Magennis: Mmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: falls in love with the game and wants to work. At 13 years old when they make that choice, from 13 to 18 I think a lot more of those hours will get put in rather than the prior years before 13 because you're still fostering love. But like you're saying in especially Canadian hockey and even we're seeing it in our community, we're trying to get these kids to start their 10,000 hours at 8 years old. So therefore, by the time they get to 7,000 hours or 8, Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: They're burnt out and will never get to the 10 because you start them so early. But if you do this 8 to 13, maybe they get 3000 to 4000 hours, but they really truly are healthy, functional, great hours, then those next 60 % of your hours are going to get done from 13 to 18 and they're going to be specialized and they're going to be ⁓ intentional and you're really going to see your athlete grow. Jason Magennis: Yeah, and I think to that point, I think it opens up the definition of what those hours can be, right? Because are they 10,000 hours on the range, swinging the golf club, or are they 10,000 hours doing supplementary things around that that are also building that level of skill and ability, right? So, you know, it opens up the aperture on what 10,000 hours even is. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, you know, just just to add a quick point to that when I read that book outliers Jason, this was years ago when it came out. I thought it was really interesting that a lot of the parents, because I don't I don't know if parents knowingly did that if they put their kids in sports leagues or they started them at certain ages or they held them back in school so that they could purposely. you know, become the older kid that was playing in the cities. But I remember reading that and I was just like, you know, this is, it's almost like diabolical at some level with some of these parents and what they're doing. And to the extent that they'll go to, to get their kid, ⁓ to give them a chance to become a professional athlete, you know, it's just, it's crazy to me because I feel like, you know, you're totally ignoring your, your, your child's Any other ability or any other possibility that they may have in life, know Maybe they maybe they'll aspire to become a great artist or an author or something But for them it was all about sports and it's like we're gonna we're gonna get Tommy in this league at this age He's gonna be the oldest in the league or in the league. He's gonna he's going to mature He's gonna develop faster than the rest of the kids and we're gonna try to get him that you know the best edge and advanced possible to become a pro athlete in life and it's like well, why don't you You know, I try to identify some other skills that they may have, you know, along the way and try to get them in a position to succeed in those areas. And it's just, you know, all this is kind of being driven by the parents. And I just, I just remember reading that. I'm just like, you know, it's, it's insane what some parents will do to try to do, ⁓ to manipulate the path of their child, you know, and it's just, it kind of ties back into the reason why we started this league. ⁓ and we really want to be the antithesis of, of, of what. that culture is, you know, we're out here, we're trying to foster a fun environment for the kids. We want them to develop. Obviously we want them to become good, but we don't want to do it at an all costs, you know, type of approach. It's not like when it all costs, you know, that's when things start becoming like borderline gross to me, you know, it's just, it becomes weird. And I think a lot of the parents that realize that have joined our league. and they've wanted to become part of our league because they're like, you know, they've recognized that that's kind of what they were being fed, you know, in this area and they don't want that for their kids. You know, they want their kids to kind of grow and mature healthy through this process. So, I mean, that's obviously, that's probably been the number one reason why I wanted to start this thing and get into it because we needed to have full control over it because you can't make a change like that if you're just a coach and part of system. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: You have to be the founder. You've got to get the top of the whole thing. And then the culture changes ⁓ beneath you. And that's what Brian and me and Tony and Brian, the belief that we all share is that this is really how it has to happen. And like I saying earlier, the elite athletes are going to become elite. They will go on to become great athletes. There's nothing that's, the cream always rises to the top, so to speak, right? ⁓ Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: But the other ones for all the kids that don't have those gifts, you know, that's there's still a lot of life skills that can be taught through the process. So. Jason Magennis: And a lot of fun to be had. you know, sometimes that can get lost in the shuffle too. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah. Yeah. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Mean that that's why I'm playing over 30 basketball right now, you know, it's I still love it I I lost my love to be a professional because I have children now that would love to pass on the love But the game doesn't go away, you know, I probably play too much for what my wife's likings like she's like used to get paid to do this Why are you paying to join leagues now? You know, but it's because I do I do love the game and it's nice that I am 6-8 So it makes it easy to play the game but it is a a true love that ⁓ Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah. ⁓ Jason Magennis: haha Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: You know, I had a full work day. ⁓ you know, I was sick two days ago But hey, I still got to make my two-hour open gym because I love it. That's my outlet and it's a healthy outlet It's it's me getting out. It's me chopping it up with you know 15 other guys that show up on that day and listening to what was your work week? Like ⁓ you're mad at your boss, too. Yeah, so am I you know, and then you just you just you just Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: You're just out there, you're just existing around something fun that you learned that you fell in love with as a child. And maybe we still all feel like children, you know? I I used to always say when I was a professional that I got paid to play a child's game for a living, which it is. It's a child's game. You evolve through it, but it never becomes more than what it is, a game. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think, you know, the other thing I would tag onto that, Brian, is I think the example that's setting for your kids, right? Because, you know, you're demonstrating that lifelong love of movement. You're demonstrating a healthy outlet for stress and for, you know, engaging with your friends and all of those things that they're picking up through just observing you and your behavior, right? There's that element of it too. But if we don't give kids an opportunity to fall in love with the game and get that experience early on, then that's a different story, right? They might be watching you come home and go to the basement and play video games for three hours. It's very different, right? So the long lasting impact of building this love of movement and sport is something that's really significant and that I don't think we should lose sight of when we're thinking about this. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Yeah, I mean, I think we're in a, you know, there's the nature versus nurture argument and ⁓ you're just, putting people in environments and seeing how they grow. So you're right. Like we, we are trying to offer an environment where Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: We've talked about there is competition. We have a championship weekend, which is the highlight of our season, but not because a championship is crowned at the end. Every child runs through the tunnel. Every child is going to receive a t-shirt or a medal or whatever. There will be a winner. There will be a loser. Our hope is that the coaches that are on the losing team. Talk about guys. That was a fantastic season. Did you have fun running out of the tunnel? I had such a great time with you for six weeks I hope to see you for the next six week season, you know, hey, maybe we lost it's okay What do we have to do to get better? Did you guys practice hard last, know yesterday? Do you feel like we really prepared the best we could or do think we probably had a little slip up? You know, and so even the kids can go we kind of slipped up a little bit and be like, okay Well, you know what get a ball on your hands and hopefully I see you next season and we can continue to go but it's an environment You're putting them in and it's the words and how you're framing it for their minds if you come off and they've lost and they're crying and you go Yeah, it was the ref's fault, you know and you guys didn't practice hard for an hour And then you all sudden you berate them and you put that pressure on them. That's what they're gonna remember from that moment instead of How do I get better? How do I grow from this? How do I learn from this? And I think that's the That's the coaching, that's the culture, that's the change through the environment that they're put in. There's a specific child that was in our program that we wanted to be on a select team for the third graders. And I expect a lot from him, from his development. Jeff and I coached him together. last year in our first inaugural season and so I thought you know let's give this kid his own team ⁓ kind of be the star player this time just see how he develops hey we'll give him a chance at select team but what happened was the child ended up losing a lot this year through basketball the kid loves basketball to death but he lost a lot and I saw his mom and I and Jason Magennis: Mmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: The kid wasn't on my team, but his little brother practiced with Jeff's younger son. And so I would invite him to play with us for practice. But one day he said, no, I don't want to come over to practice, which I was like, ⁓ goodness. Okay, well, you know, I'm not going to pressure you. That's fine. That's your prerogative. And I just reached out to his mom afterwards and it's like, hey, what's going on? ⁓ He didn't want to jump into practice. And she goes, he's really upset. He's done a lot of losing and you know, your team's the team he just lost to and so he kind of feels a type of way and I was like, I don't want that at all. I said, I am so sorry. I said, I wanted for his development, and you know, he's a third grader, but I was just hoping to give him the chance to be the star player for his team. ⁓ Not for him to win, but just for his development. I think he's talented, so I thought that would be a good thing for him, but it was too early. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: But I can recognize that and I can go to him and have the specific conversation and I can go to the parents and go, I'm sorry. This was, and it's only a 12 week season of his third grade life, right? So hopefully next year we'll make the adjustment, but we can tell them it's okay to lose, you know, and they're doing a great job at home with how to deal with that. but I just told them, hey, we won't do it again. We weren't trying to put pressure on him. I was just trying to, I saw the natural progression of his development and I thought it would be great for him. ⁓ It didn't work out. It was a failed experiment. And so what we have the kid continue to come through our seasons. So we'll be able to earmark that and go, okay, not that he needs to win, right? You still have to deal with adversity, but the kid has started to work harder for his parents. He started to make changes. And so we just have to be aware of that. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: and then we foster that through the rest of, and I think that's what we can give kids through our program. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah. And, and Brian, like a lot of what you just said right now, Brian, you know, it's, coaching the kids, but it's also coaching the parents at the same time, because the parents don't know how to, how to really react in these situations too. A lot of them are, are, you know, new parents, you know, maybe they're there. It's, their first child and you know, the kids, you know, seven, eight years old and this is the first time they're playing the sport. And, and the only real reference that they have to coaching is, what they see on TV or what they, you know, what documentary they just saw. Right. chances are it's probably a documentary about, you know, Michael Jordan, the last dance, Tiger Woods, the one you probably don't want to show them, right? the, where the kid, right. You know, it's like, so they're thinking, okay, I need to take this hard nose approach to coaching my kid, or they're going to be weak. And they're not going to, they're not going to, you know, be, be good. Right. So Jason Magennis: Yeah, the extreme end of what we're discussing. Jeoffrey De Waele: Um, we're trying to teach them more of a softer approach, more of a methodical approach that it's about development. It's about encouraging your kid first and then getting them to love, to fall in love with it and then developing that great foundational base. And then they're probably going to take it from that point forward. You know, if they really love what they're doing, they love the sport. They're going to take it upon themselves to get out there and take the reps, take the shots, you know, do all the practicing and stuff. You know, I knew, I know when I was growing up and I, you know, I was. seventh, eighth grade, I don't think my parents ever told me one time to go outside and shoot the basketball. Like they weren't, that wasn't there. You know, I was lucky if they dropped me off at my games, you know, we would have to look through newspapers to find leagues and me and my brother were, you know, we're, we're scouring the, you know, the, the mailers and stuff. And we had to put all this effort to find the league and play in it. But it was that effort that, that kind of drove us because then we're like, okay. We signed up ourselves for this league. So we took all the accountability and all the onus kind of fell on us. And then I said, I'm going to go out and practice. I'm going to do this. And, know, it's just, obviously, you know, it's a different era, you know, it's, you know, 30 years ago or so, but, ⁓ you know, now it's, it's, it requires a lot more kind of hand holding a lot more selling, you know, a lot more, ⁓ you know, you, you, got to nudge your kids a lot more now to kind of get interested in this. ⁓ and, know, but. I think that if, like I was saying earlier, if you get them sold at an early level and you get them to really buy into this, they're going to take it upon themselves to realize, okay, I need to go out there and I need to practice and I need to be really good. And, you know, we have to coach the parents to kind of help them, they're going to encourage their kids to do that because we only have so much time with the kids at practice. then when they go home, then the parents kind of take over from that point and then they become the coaches and they have to kind of encourage and all that stuff. You know, it's a lot. I mean, it was really a lot of, ⁓ it's a lot of training that you have to do and you don't realize it, that you're having to, how much involvement you have with the parents on this and how little experience they have with it. ⁓ you know, Brian and I were talking right before we got on this call about sort of the vetting process that we need to sort of implement next season and how we're selecting coaches. And we do have to be a little more selective and we do have to make sure that they share the same philosophies and the same beliefs and belief systems that we have. ⁓ Because, you know, if you don't, then we can get ourselves in a situation where we're saying one thing, but the coaches are saying something else and we're not all singing from the same sheet of music, so to speak. So ⁓ that's something that we're working on right now. We're a new organization, but we're going to get that dialed in pretty quickly ⁓ with our next seasons. ⁓ Jason Magennis: You know, that's actually, ⁓ I'm really glad you made that point, Jeff, because that was one thing I wanted to ask you guys, you know, as I, as I've read through all of your material and as I listened to you both speak, one word that keeps coming up for me is deliberate. You you're very deliberate in all the decisions you're making. And you know, what I think is so fascinating is you've referenced a couple of times about training for coaches. And that's something that. I think is an issue in the youth sports world, specifically for kids who aren't playing at an elite level, is often the coach is the warm body who can show up every week. And their training amounts to, know, here's your basketball rule book. The balls are over there, have a great time, right? And I think as associations, you know, we do a disservice to the kids by not better arming the coaches and I don't mean with like full deep understanding of the sport. I mean arming them with how to be an effective coach. ⁓ And so I'm really curious how you guys approach that with the coaches that are part of Playmakers. How do you educate them? How do you make them aware of what your goals are as an organization and then ultimately give them the tools to succeed in their role? Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: So, being one of our biggest sports, ⁓ that's something that I take onus on, especially for the basketball side is... We appreciate our volunteers and you can only go so far as a company, especially as a small business with your volunteers you have. But you do get into the warm body coaching aspect. we ran in, we're happy to put, we've put 20 plus teams every season, but you'll get one or two that you're just like, ⁓ we didn't vet that person good enough. And so we have coaching material. Jason Magennis: Mmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Have a handbook through my many years of coaching from when I was a child who taught me growing up I was benefited from a Hall of Fame coach in college ⁓ national team coaches overseas, but it's a handbook of where Should children be learning the sport at third grade? What skills do they truly need to know? I'm not talking about pin downs and staggers and turnouts and that and whatnot at third grade I'm still trying to make sure we know when we go from offense to defense. I'm still going to make sure we know what a pivot is. The amount of kids that I've got are middle schoolers and high schoolers that don't know what a true pivot is or a two foot jump stop is mind boggling. But that's where we've lost it where we do. We roll the ball out and we just compete to win and we get through an hour of practice and we make sure we won the scrimmage. That was all that was accomplished. And that is the biggest detriment you can have. So we have a handbook. Jason Magennis: Mm-mm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: And we have a rule sheet that we like to send out to our coaches. But, you know, Jeff and I, we've brainstormed and we've talked about, you know, this being year two of basketball for us starting next year, ⁓ we have this handbook that's going to go out and it's going to be an age group detailed on what are the skills that a fourth grader needs to know by the end of this six week season? What is a respectable level of skill? A second grader who's very new to basketball. What are the basic concepts of the sport that they need to know? And then, you know, we're going to have the coaches clinic that, you know, we're all busy. But if you can't, OK, you're giving up your time for a practice and a game. We appreciate that. But before the start of the season, I'm asking for 45 minutes that I can show you when I have these drills on this sheet. This is what this drill looks like. If you, know, you're giving us time and we appreciate that. But if you give us just one extra 45 minutes of your time that you can come to this coaches clinic and you go. Okay, I'm gonna gain a bunch of information or guess what if you can't make it there's about 50,000 YouTube channels and different documentaries and things you can look up how what's a three-man weave look like what's a three on two two on one fast break look like you know If you just come to 45 minutes of our coaches clinic It's a lot better than going through the rabbit hole of YouTube for five hours, right? Maybe that's what you want to do Maybe that's what you don't want to have me talk to you for 45 minutes great Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: But that's something we've talked about is true coaching clinics. know, I coached soccer for the first time this year. I know nothing about soccer. I played because it was the first sport I could play at six years old. I played it for two years and then my dad was like basketball season started and I was like, great, soccer is done. And so I didn't know anything, but I got through into it this year and I just attacked it like I would attack a basketball. Hey kids, when the coach is talking, you know, you're going to listen. Hey. Jason Magennis: Heh heh. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: when the guy's in front of you with the ball, you stay between the ball and the goal, know, angle them off. Just, you can take concepts of just, just give the kids concepts, give them skills, you know, hey, you know, kick the ball with the inside of your foot, not your toe. These are all little things that if you don't know the sport, you can look up and you can see a couple grade level skills that are needed from a very young age. And you know, it's gonna do them wonders, so. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: That's kind of the premise of how we've started, but I mean, we're definitely more leveled in on the basketball side of that. ⁓ But, you know, that's why we have Tony. Tony's the soccer guy. You know, we have Jeff. Jeff's the baseball guy. Like, we like to think that we have at the top for our culture guys that know the sport and know a high enough level of nuance that the trickle-down effect through our volunteer coaches can be... ⁓ Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: we can give them parameters that can be followed. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, and just to kind of piggyback on that, Brian, you know, another thing we want to do, Jason, is we want to implement some type of a questionnaire, know, preseason questionnaire that the coaches or aspiring coaches will fill out. And I think from that, we can really kind of get an idea of what their philosophy is and what they're about in coaching. ⁓ You know, maybe we follow that up with an interview. over, you know, we do like a video conference or, you know, video interview or something like that, or in person to try to get a feel for them. Because I mean, we've been fortunate, you know, obviously, honestly, Brian, we've been fortunate the last couple years, but we haven't had a lot of bad luck with some of these, you know, coaches that, that don't sort of, you know, practice what we're trying to preach here. ⁓ But I think as we grow, and as we scale, Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: It's only natural to know that we're going to have problems in the future if we don't start to implement some type of check and balance in the beginning. So, were talking about earlier, sometimes a lot of these people will sell themselves differently and say, yeah, that's what I'm about. not a high pressure coach. I want to develop. And then all of a sudden they get on the court and they take on a completely different persona. And you're like, where did this person come from? Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: You know, and I think, I think Brian, you and I were talking about this. think a lot of it's kind of like theater. You know, they get out there, they see a hundred people in front of them and they're like, this is performance time for me. I'm going to look, I'm going to play the role of being this coach that's a hard nose coach. I'm going to, you know, be a Bobby Knight and throw a chair on the court. Jason Magennis: ⁓ God, I have Bobby Knight in my head. As soon as you said theater, I was like, like Bobby Knight throwing chairs across the floor. I get it. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, and that's the image all of them have in their mind and they think that that is going to show the most value, I guess, for the parents and the parents are going to say, wow, you're an amazing coach, the passion that you show. And truthfully, honestly, I think the coaches that are out there and they're not the most demonstrative coaches that are waving their hands and making a big scene, those are really the more effective coaches out there. And they're there, they're just kind of making substitutions. They're having little side chats with their players. They're not screaming at the ref. They're not screaming at the players on the floor. You know, all that stuff is, in my opinion, is completely unnecessary and useless at that point because the kids are so involved in the game at that level. And if you're screaming in their ear, telling them the box out, telling them to do this, that's just more noise. That's just more white noise that you're throwing out there to that kid. if, truthfully, if they're not prepared, enough in practice, then trying to yell at them on game day is not going to do anything for them. It's like trying to cram for a test, you know, like all of the setting has to be done leading up to test day. You cannot just go out there and think that you're going to change them, you know, during the game. So, you know, I know I kind of threw out a lot of things there and went in lot of different directions, but that's, that's really what, you know, the culture that we're trying to preach here. And that's, that's kind of what we're going to do. with these coaches and make sure that they know this and this happens during the vetting process, ⁓ you know, in the next season that we have. So, you know. Jason Magennis: So two things are really emerging for me out of that. And so, you know, I really appreciate the duality of the training you're trying to offer these coaches. So there's the understanding of the game and giving them tools. So Brian, your example with the basketball coaches, they can feel confident that they're doing the right things to help the kids develop and have fun and all of those important elements. And then Jeff, also the piece around You know, how do you instill the values of the organization and ensure they're doing the right thing for the kids when they need them? ⁓ you know, the, screaming piece really brings up for me, you know, coaching baseball. One of the biggest challenges, coaching coaching baseball is the pace of the game. I think gives parents and people in the stands more opportunity to contribute and the coaching that can come from the stands. can be such a distraction. And you think about a 12 year old at bat, right? And you hear, you know, dad up in the stands like, get your elbow up, know, load your leg. It's like, this is not the time for that. They need to focus on trying to do their best and hit the ball, right? And so that's something I'm actually thinking about a lot with my team this year is, you know, we're doing winter practices now, but as we transition into the summer, how do we set guidelines and team norms around who communicates to the kids when they're on the field? because it adds pressure and it makes, ⁓ it has the inverse effect. Cause often these parents have good intentions, they're trying to help, but I don't think they're thinking big picture about the impact it's actually having. So that really came up when you were saying that is this idea of how as coaches and as organizations and associations do we give folks the tools to make the best decisions in the moment. The other thing was when you talked about the performative piece and I mentioned this on a podcast a couple of months ago and I still haven't looked up who the quote came from, but I believe it's Nick Saban. So we're going to say it's Nick Saban for now when he coached at Alabama and he was talking about when the pressure's really building and people are starting to get tense and frustrated and you know, things are happening all around them in these big stadiums. He needed to be the calmest person on the field. He said, I knew that was my cue to be the calmest person on the field. needed to set that energy for the team. And I thought that was so fascinating because here's a man who coaches one of the premier NCAA division one programs. Every weekend plays in front of 75 to a hundred thousand fans is on a game that's broadcast to millions. and he's able to hold that composure for his team. And I thought, wow, if he can do that, why can't the guy coaching 13U soccer on a Saturday morning keep it together, right? So it just puts things in context, how we need to think about this, what is the outcome we're trying to deliver and how do we best get there? And often that outcome is by thinking kid first and what do the kids need to be successful? Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: I mean, I think you hit it on the head was Nick Saban's playing in front of a hundred thousand or coaching in front of a hundred thousand playing for something this 13 you coach thinks that he's coaching in front of hundred thousand and thinks he's playing for something and the kid is lost in that and So how do you? Get rid of the theater. How do you give them the quality? ⁓ Jason Magennis: Yes. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: the children, quality coaching and the quality attention that is required. And I mean, that's our biggest question in our address. you know, I think we've started even to pivot towards what does the media tell us needs to happen? And what do the coach that volunteers? What do they see at the professional level? They just think that that needs to happen in their coaching philosophy for the eight year old for the nine year old for the 10 year old and no there we're on totally different fields there, you know, The Dreymon greens the the the yolk edges the Lucas like They they yell at refs that they complain they win championships they compete for all NBA But they're getting paid to do those things They've already got the love of the game, now it's gotten to the point where they're competing for something and we show them yelling at refs and how much their contracts are, but that's not the same case for this 10 year old that's trying to learn, what is a box out? What is a screen? How do I slide my feet and not slap? Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Am I getting called for travel? What does a travel even mean? What's a double dribble? So, you know, we instantly go to the 250 million dollar contract and the referee who's cheating us at 10 years old because that's what we're shown through the media and through society We compare Jordan and LeBron based off of championships one and Then that's it right where there's a whole other spectrum. Don't get me wrong Michael Jordan's the goat, but It's it's it's already Established that it's based on success. So therefore when we're eight years old playing basketball for the first time Success is what's measured because that's what the greatest of all times measured off of and it's it's told two totally different things it can't be they can't equally exist in the same hemisphere because It's it's it's just absurdity Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: to think that they exist in the same realm, they don't. Even though it's the same sport, it's not even the same realm. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, so you guys talk a lot about ⁓ these pressurized situations for the kids. one of the things we do, Jason, at our basketball games to try to alleviate a lot of that pressure is we play constant music throughout the whole game. ⁓ And there's actually a lot of psychology behind it. It's not just to make it more of a livelier atmosphere. ⁓ It's kind of interesting. we'll play instrumental, kind of like. Beats in the background. Like if you go to like an NBA game, right? If you, if you go to like a Raptors game, right? They're playing music, right? In the background, kind of in between as, as the guys dribbling the ball up the court. So we'll do that ⁓ at our games. And we do it kind of like a medium volume, you know? So it's, it drowns out a lot of like the background noise, the, know, that, that kind of that, ⁓ that high pressure situation where it's just, you know, church quiet in the, in the state, you know, in the gym. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: and they're at the free throw line and it's just, can just feel the pressure and that. we have, we kind of have this music playing in the background and it's kind of going constantly. We play music in between timeouts and stuff like that, but it does, it alleviates a lot of that stress in those moments. ⁓ And there's also kind of an interesting thing that I read. The psychology is when a child hears like a beat, like a music beat and no lyrics, just like kind of just like the background beat or instrumental beat. They try to synchronize that with the dribbling of the ball at the same time. we could, we kind of naturally do that as humans. ⁓ but it's more, I think it's more subconscious at their level. And in addition to that, another thing that it does is it distracts their body from, from mentally feeling like they're tired. So if their legs are tired and they're running up to court, but they're hearing music in the background, that distracts them physically. And they're, they're kind of able to kind of push past that. And you see that a lot like. Jason Magennis: Mmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: you know, like I'm a gym guy, like to work out a lot. You know, people play music obviously when they work out and stuff like that, because there's a lot of psychology and research behind, you know, playing music and, you know, it motivates you naturally and has all those other, you know, intangible benefits to it. ⁓ But you kind of see it with kids at the youth level. You know, they're like, wow, you know, they like to be there, it's fun, you know. And to them, they're just like kind of thinking like, ⁓ this is like a really fun atmosphere, it feels like the NBA, it feels like I'm at like a real Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: Trailblazers game or Lakers game. But really there's kind of, there's more behind it too. it's just kind of one of the fun things that we do at our games and it just kind of livens everything up. I mean, we got a fair share of complaints too from parents that the music's too loud, but we kind of deal with that, right? So. Jason Magennis: That's all really interesting though. And again, I'm go back to that word I used earlier, deliberate, right? I think it's really fascinating how you're using that music with such a deliberate intention of one, maybe drowning out some of the noise that could become a distraction, but two, it's almost as if it's helping the kids focus on the game more and bringing them into that space. That's really interesting. I like that. Jeoffrey De Waele: It is. Yeah, it's really it's really interesting and I because I can remember growing up, you know, when you walk into a gym, it's like library quiet, right? You walk in there and you're like, ⁓ I can hear everything I can. I can hear parents talking. I can hear coaches talking. I can hear people, you know, and for me, I was always like self conscious about like people were saying stuff like, ⁓ you know, his his shooting form sucks or he can't, you he doesn't he doesn't have any hops. He can't jump, you know. And if you hear those things, you're a kid, right? You're you're listening to that. And that sticks with you. And you're just like, man, I can't. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: You know, especially as kids are, so fragile, you know, at this age. So we, you know, we just, that's just kind of part of our, our, ⁓ kind of our culture is that we want to make it fun. It's all about the fun atmosphere. It's all about the, ⁓ you know, making it, you know, something that the kids look forward to every Saturday, you know, to come to. So, and then, you know, we have our, championship game, which was our last game of the year. And we, and we, we rent this giant tunnel and the kids run out underneath it. And we have like. ⁓ music playing really loud. announced their names like it's a pro game. ⁓ You know, we have like, you know, there's like music and lights and just kind of all the whole kind of production that goes into that. And it's, it's, it's awesome. Like you see it on this kid's faces. Some of the parents are even like, sometimes they're like tearing up when they're watching their kids run out because like, this is like a cool moment for them, you know. ⁓ Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: And some these kids, or I would say most of the kids are never gonna experience this again in their life. They're not gonna go on to play at the higher levels. So this is like their moment in life to kind of feel that it's like, this is something for them. And that's all kind of ties back into we're trying to sell the kids on why this is something that they shouldn't invest their time in, and it's worthwhile. Jason Magennis: Well, and I love that idea of giving them these experiences, ⁓ know, small add-ons to the game in that situation have a lasting memory and a lasting impact, right? And we start this conversation talking about building the love of the game. I'm sure all those pieces, when you put them all together, are all building towards that experience and giving them that joy that ultimately becomes the foundation for... you know, when they hit that fork in the road and they now have to make the decision for themselves if they're going to keep playing and if they're going to commit to it. Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, and that's what it's all about is, you you hear the term user experience all the time, right? In everything and in tech and in all aspects of life. So that's what it is. We're trying to create a really fun user experience for them. So. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: in a lot of our company meetings we like to talk to is value add, right? So you talk that we're deliberate, but we're deliberate in the value that we add, right? And so we think with the basis of our knowledge or just how. Jason Magennis: Mmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: the theory or the thought behind this company grew was we were deliberate in the intention to start it. We wanted to add value at every level, but we also feel like we ourselves have played at high enough levels or have seen what it takes to get to a high enough level that we can add those values as the child progresses through the experience. But being block number one is to have fun. Jason Magennis: So I have one more question that I think I'd really like us to focus on a bit, but you guys went out and created something really, really innovative in this space. But I'm ask you to put yourself in the shoes of someone listening to this podcast who maybe is part of an association, a volunteer, a coach. What do you think are some things we could be doing in existing institutions to help shift that pivot back a bit more to fun? Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: The biggest thing we've run into, into our local community, and in me being back home from playing overseas and just kind of getting re-immersed back into the culture and the community is there's people that make a living at doing this, right? Through these associations and through these stuff. So when you have a for-profit model and it is your only livelihood and being, you lose the emotional attachment. to the children coming through your organization for them to grow. And you just see them as a dollar sign and as a figure for your daily life. And I think that's where the desensitization has been desensitized, that these children are just numbers coming through. We're making sure we put volunteers in place and we've done our job. We're going to collect the fee that comes with them. where we, like I said, we choose the value add. We choose to give you everything and we want the best for this child. We truly, like I say, we all still play in our own adult lives in every type of rec league for whatever sport is going on for that season. We're not all focused on just playing basketball together as adults. We're not all focused on softball together as adults. You know, we're talking about starting a flag football. League for adults like we want to play all the sports because we enjoy sport because it's healthy and that's truly the premise so It's hard for me to say how can the casual listener or the person who is the head of an association locally? If they're profit driven or if they're just seeing these children as let's get numbers To make our quota and they truly aren't thinking about the child and their experience when they're 35 When they're 45 when they're 50 that's honestly how we've started it So I feel like we went in with that basis and I don't see it getting away from that Like how could it if that's your premise and that's your basis. You're only gonna go up from there. So I just you know Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: it's turned into a for-profit thing for the people and the organizers around and That's that's just not how we've operated or what we've been about. It's truly been about Jeff said user experience value add and so For me to say someone listening to the podcast that's involved with something else like I coach I coach a high-level a you club That's that's associated with Nike, but the reason we can't get the 15 best kids in Oregon to be on one basketball team is because there are 15 other organizations that want to profit off of, they want to pick that one big kid and develop a team around them. But the one kid is going to get his tournament fees. Jason Magennis: Mmm. I we lost Brian there for a minute. Jeoffrey De Waele: You didn't, think maybe the maybe his battery died or something. he's reconnecting. Okay. Jason Magennis: Jeff, why don't you jump in? Any thoughts there? Jeoffrey De Waele: Yeah, so, you I would say, you know, I would say if we're trying to really change things and we're trying to change the landscape here, I think a lot of the parents need to kind of take a look at themselves and their level of self-awareness ⁓ and just say, you know, what are we doing? You know, how am I out there? You know, am I being a, am I being productive out there, you know, with my kids on the court or on the field? Jason Magennis: Mm. Jeoffrey De Waele: by yelling at them or am I being productive by telling them they didn't do that right or they should do this better? And it all comes back to a level of self-awareness where if they're not doing that and they don't know, because a lot of them don't realize that they're doing this. And you have to call them out on this and you have to say that's not the culture that we're trying to ⁓ promote here in our league. You know, we're not, that's not what we're about here. ⁓ So I think if they can kind of increase that level of self-awareness, then we're gonna see a shift here in how things change through the league. And we're also gonna see a change ⁓ depending on who we bring on as coaches and who are out there, you know, that are representing our league. ⁓ Because that's, those are people that are ultimately, they're like our generals on the field, right? You know, they're out there and that's who everyone, they're the face of the league, really, essentially. Brian and I can't coach 15 teams together. ⁓ All we can do is select the right people for the right to put them in the right position to make them successful. it's, it's at the end of the day, it's like a people business. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a business of, of, selecting the right individuals and putting them in the right roles for success. So. Jason Magennis: Yeah, and you know, I think, ⁓ you know, Brian was getting there before he got cut off, but I think a big thing is putting the kids at the center of what's going on. And I liken it to a lot of what we've talked about with coaches in that, you know, if a coach is focused on winning and winning at all costs, that's gonna... eventually be detrimental to the team and it's gonna cap their ability to perform versus if the coach is focused on, you know, how do I create the right environment for my kids to develop and grow and thrive and have fun, then the winning just takes care of itself. So to build on what Brian was saying, it's a similar dynamic if an administration or association is focused solely on how much revenue are we bringing in by bringing in a certain number of kids to hit a target, then they're gonna be capped at how well that'll work. Versus if they're focused like you guys are on creating really great user and participant experiences that kids truly enjoy and wanna be part of, then that now creates an opportunity where that growth will happen because of the product they're putting on the field. And so I think, you know, it's too bad Brian got cut off because I think that was the lesson in what I was taking away from what he was saying is if as associations, sure, maybe we have to be revenue focused to keep the lights on, but if we're putting the kid at the center, the revenue piece will come as part of that focus on the end user. Jeoffrey De Waele: Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. If you do the right, if you take the right steps in the beginning, then the output and the final product at the end is going to be good. Right. What was it garbage in garbage out. Right. So yeah. ⁓ but, ⁓ but yeah, there's, there's a lot of important incremental steps that you have to take in order to get to that great product at the end. So I think that if, if I'm a new parent and I'm new to the youth sports, I'm going to do my research. and I'm going to look at who is in charge of the leagues and kind of maybe even do a deep dive into like their background, you know, what have they done? ⁓ You know, if I, and then because they're ultimately going to be the ones that are going to select the coaches and they're going to bring everybody else in underneath them. So if you look at the top, if you're looking at the very top of the organization and they seem like good people, you know, they seem like people that share the same values that you do. ⁓ Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Jeoffrey De Waele: Chances are everybody that they brought in underneath them to help run the league are also going to be kind of on that same page as well. So I think so I think new parents out there should all do their due diligence. They should all research the league research who the who the who's running the leagues and then maybe kind of do some, you know, talk talk to some of the parents that have been in those leagues for the last years and ask them questions like what's the culture like? ⁓ You know what are what are the what are the coaches? What do they like? You know, and just kind of ask some of those questions because honestly and I'm guilty of this too. Like I never really asked these questions. I never really did research like that. I just, you know, sign my kids up for these leagues and then, you know, and cross your fingers and hope it works out. And a lot of times it may be the only game in town. It may be the only league that's out there that's available. So if you don't have any options, then what are you going to do? You know, you're not going to drive 25 minutes to another, to another town to put your kid in a Jason Magennis: Mm-mm. Jeoffrey De Waele: to play sports, you're just gonna eat what you're being fed, so to speak. ⁓ And that's kind of where we come into play. We're just bringing a whole nother option ⁓ to the mix and we're bringing a whole nother alternative here for people. And I think there's a large unmet need for that. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: You don't know what you don't know. That's, know, if you don't, if you don't know what else is out there, you will never be told. And like, like I've gone back, like I can give parents where their child can potentially go and the levels to it, but I can tamper expectation on where are we at this age right now? What should your expectation be? The expectation for a fourth grade basketball player? I can guarantee you will never be a college coach watching a game unless their child Jason Magennis: Well, exactly right. Jeoffrey De Waele: Right. Yeah. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: child is participating and they're watching because their child's participating and they're watching their child. They're not watching your child to see if that's a scholarship they want to give out in 2045. You know, they don't even know if they're going to have a job in 2027. You know, so that's where the disconnect is and I get NIL money. We didn't even touch on that. You know, the more money that gets involved that Jason Magennis: Yeah. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: makes these parents get anxious or makes certain actors in the industry get anxious, but because there is a trickle down effect and now the high schoolers can get paid, it's true. But if that's all that we're focused on is the money and not the child, then it's desensitized and we've lost it. So. We're trying to just turn that back. And I'm hoping that were I in my community, I didn't want it to happen to my children. And I didn't want it happen to the children that they grow up around. And I wanna give parents expectation of, know coaches at every level. for basketball, I know coaches for every level at high level sport. And I can guarantee you, none of them are calling me to ask me what's the best fourth grader, third grader in their respective sport in your region. It just doesn't happen. If they called me, I would tell them, this child's really good right now. But I can tell you this child, I can tell, is already getting burnt out. The local baseball association. is potentially going to have to go to middle of the week games because they didn't have enough kids sign up for baseball on the weekends. That's at fourth grade. Kids are already burnt out enough. They don't want to play baseball anymore. And I think that's super sad because as much as I had the worst strike zone in history for being super tall when I was young, I still played through sixth grade. Jason Magennis: Yeah. Hehehehehe Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: I didn't enjoy it, but my dad was like, you will play another sport. You'll be coached by another individual. And so I can appreciate now that I watched the Mariners when they were going on their quest to try and, you know, get a World Series and bring something to the Pacific Northwest. Like that stuff's cool. I can enjoy sport because I was able to stay in it and learn it to an extent. And I just think that's where kids are able to tell their mom and dad, no, at fourth grade, I don't want to play this sport. Jason Magennis: Mm-hmm. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: because they're not, the child doesn't enjoy it anymore and the parent doesn't want to drag them to practice. The parent doesn't want to fork out the money and doesn't want to lose that weekend game. And so when you make that happen over four five different sports, then you lose a child that's being active and playing sports and then they go lose themselves in a video game and you've lost that child as an adult. Jason Magennis: Yep. Well guys, this has been great. Thank you so much. I appreciate all the insight you've shared. I've got one last question, but before we get there, where can folks listening learn more about Playmakers USA? Jeoffrey De Waele: could go directly to our website. That's playmakersusa.com. ⁓ And then, you know, then from there there's links all out to our socials ⁓ from there. So. Jason Magennis: That's great. And you know what, I think what you guys are doing is awesome. I think there's innovation here and a great example that, you know, I'm hoping whether directly or indirectly, ⁓ people start thinking differently about how they build these associations and teams and start putting a little bit more emphasis on the development and the fun you guys are focused on in those early ages. ⁓ Last question before we go, cause I know you guys are both Oregon guys and I grew up in the nineties watching what I would say arguably the best decade of basketball. I got to ask you, Cly Drexler or Terry Porter? Jeoffrey De Waele: man, ⁓ know, I'm actually, I'm an Oregon transplant. grew up in California. So I'm going to say Kobe Bryant. ⁓ Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Have a good one. Jason Magennis: ⁓ I'll take, I'll always take Kobe Bryant as an answer. Jeoffrey De Waele: But Brian can probably weigh in on that. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Jeff, that's such a cop out, Jace Luis. No, I honestly would go Clyde the Glide just because I think the way he did stuff, the way he moved his body as an athlete, Terry definitely was fantastic and I could see why he got the coaching job and he was more technical like at early coming of Chauncey Billups. But Clyde was just kind of that. Jason Magennis: Yeah. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: New Age, MJ way you move, like just athleticism that you ooh and ⁓ at and ⁓ as a child from the 90s when I was growing up that's what I like to see besides when I saw Hulking Arvita Sabonis watching somebody else that was able to just literally glide across the court and just make it look effortless was just like man how do I become an athlete like that and then I realized I couldn't. Jason Magennis: Well guys, thanks again. Really appreciate you being here and all the best with PlayMakers. Thank you guys for doing some awesome stuff. Brian Conklin & Jeoff De Waele: Thanks, Jason. Appreciate you. Jeoffrey De Waele: Thanks, Jason. Appreciate it. Thank you.