speaker-0: I think everyone in marketing has tried to have that brilliant idea and then someone, ⁓ that someone, says we should probably run that through legal. And it's just everyone knows that that brilliant idea then will fall down and be nothing basically. I think a lot of people have had this problem and are sitting with this problem and it's not because legal are always too negative. It's also sometimes because you're working with something that's just really, really complex and you have a lot of things that you need to think about before just posting a random LinkedIn post. And that's exactly what we're talking about today. Welcome to the Content Universe. Let's dive in. This one is really lucky for you because I am not alone in the studio. This is an online recording, but it's in our virtual studio. I have Meigen Riese-Anersen, who is the head of corporate communication and branding at ALK. And you've been there for three years, I've noted down. And just for everyone not knowing what ALK is, ALK is a pharmaceutical company that works with allergy and that works with allergic asthma and has done so for, I say, 100 years. So I let it least exist for 100 years. I think, Meigen, you come before your position at ALK, you were in what I would basically say regular communications positions. What is the big difference now between working in a regular company and in a normal company? Is it not a normal company? In a normal company, working with communications, working with global communications, what's the difference from before? And now that you're at ALK where you have a little bit tighter restrictions compliance wise.

speaker-1: Thanks, Miguel, and thanks for having me on your podcast. I've been really looking forward to it. And yes, you're absolutely right. In my former positions, which were all outside the pharmaceutical industry, there were fewer regulations to adhere to. Because when you work in a pharmaceutical company, and especially one that is in Europe, You're bound by the farmer compliance regulations that we have in Europe because European companies are not allowed to promote pharmaceutical products and that is a big difference. We cannot promote the products that we make. ⁓ So we need to communicate in very different ways.

speaker-0: It sounds like an impossible task. So you're basically trying to sell something that you can't talk about. How do you do that?

speaker-1: Well, ⁓ not quite. We can talk about it, but we just need to make sure who we talk to when we talk about our products. Because when you are from zoological company, your primary ⁓ target group is, of course, doctors. So you have one set of rules that you need to adhere to when you talk to the doctors, and you have another set of rules that you will need to use when you talk to the general public. And because I ⁓ am responsible for corporate communications, I do not have the direct contact to doctors. So my area is the general public. So I have a set of rules that I need to adhere to that is very different from one that doctors get. And of course, doctors need to get ⁓ very professional and specific information about products in a very specific way because they also... There's also a set of rules for how you can communicate to doctors to not promote your products, but to speak highly professional and talk to the proven ⁓ advantages that these products have based on a set of data and not based on how you want to promote them.

speaker-0: Yeah, try and dive more into that because I think basically I still want to paint the picture of your daily work compared to other companies where they say they have rules that they need to oblige to. I would say for many companies, those rules are not rules, to quote Jack Sparrow, it's more guidelines. Whereas For you, it's actually rules. It's actually legislation that says you can and cannot do this. How's the difference and how do you work with it differently from your former positions outside of the pharmaceutical industry?

speaker-1: Yes, very much. Yeah, and that's a good question because it's very different. When we have our different channels in corporate communication, we have our own channels that would be, for example, our website, ⁓ our social media. Let's take the website as an example. ⁓ When you have a pharmaceutical company website, there is a public area on the website and there is a locked area on the website. And that is a need because the locked area is where you find the information about the products. And this area can only be accessed by doctors. So we can only have a limited ⁓ space or area that is open to the public. And this area is speaking to the general ⁓ terms about this specific subject. For us, it would be allergy. We can speak in general terms about allergy, but we cannot put any focus on specific products or how they work or how the doctors need to prescribe them or anything like that. That would be within a prohibited area only for doctors. we have... That is because if you open that up, then that would be promotion, ⁓ direct or indirect promotion, and none of that is legal.

speaker-0: is that?

speaker-1: So that can simply not be. So what we do is when we create a text that needs to go on our website, we have sometimes a long or at least a longer than you would outside the pharmaceutical industry have a longer approval process because you need to make sure that you follow the rules, that you don't say anything, that you could, know, ⁓ where you could break the rules, the law. ⁓ And in Denmark where I'm based, it's the Danish ⁓ medicines agency that regulates ⁓ the pharmaceutical industry when it's towards the general public.

speaker-0: I want to turn it on to talk a little bit about this compliance bit because you have to obey all these rules. How do you make sure that everyone in marketing, everyone in the communications department, but also I'm guessing everyone else in the company, how do you make sure that they are informed about what they can and cannot do? And what happens if Employee X posts something on LinkedIn about, know, they're maybe at a conference and they take a selfie and write something. What happens then? Can you try and...

speaker-1: Yeah, I can take you through that as an yeah, educate you a little bit on that. ⁓ It's different in marketing. I'm responsible for corporate communications and it's different in marketing because they make campaigns towards doctors, et cetera. ⁓ So that would be a bit different. But if I try to educate you a bit on how can everybody as an employee communicate on LinkedIn and feel or rest assured that they don't do anything wrong. Well, we have an obligation to train the employees on how to navigate on social media. ⁓ So what we have done at ALK in order to do so is we have just last year ⁓ developed and launched a very, or some would say a very comprehensive, but at least it is a comprehensive social media compliance course that is mandatory for all employees to take. ⁓ And we do that to give them the essential knowledge that they need pharma compliance regulations in Europe to help them ⁓ confidently ⁓ use their personal social media accounts to both like and share and comment on posts that capture their interest without the fear of not acting compliantly. And that would be like telling them how to create a post without ⁓ mentioning for example, products which they cannot communicate about. that could be, for example, in the allergy field, there are even groups of just not products, but that area that these products belong to that we cannot communicate about either because, for example, in Denmark, we have a monopoly. on our products. So even talking to this kind of ⁓ treatment that we have would not be compliant. So we have a very, very thorough and comprehensive social media compliance course for all employees.

speaker-0: Yeah, you use words like obligatory and you're obliged to and mandatory. When you say mandatory, is it mandatory because you say so or is it because someone else says so?

speaker-1: It is mandatory in that sense that if let's say 100 people ⁓ are liking the same posts that is not compliant, then we could be asked to ⁓ show to the Danish Medicines Agency that we have actually trained our people. Because you could say that on LinkedIn, it is your personal profile. and it is your personal responsibility and it still is. ⁓ But if you create a post that is in compliant and then a lot of employees like that post, then the Danish Medicines of Agency could ask us, so why is it that you're not following the rules? Could you please show us that you have trained your people? So in that sense, it's reactive. that we reactively that we could be asked to demonstrate and show that we have actually ⁓ really done the best we could to train all the employees.

speaker-0: And, and let me know, because I know that, that a lot of companies right now, they want to go the direction of employee advocacy, personal thought leadership, all that kind of stuff. It basically, for me, it falls under the same bucket, but a lot of companies, they struggle with, I guess, two things, activating people, but also making people feel safe in, in, you know, taking center stage, making people feel rest assured that they can write this and the head of corporate communication won't come after them afterwards. So this course that you have, can you tell us something about what is in that course? How detailed is it?

speaker-1: Yes, yes. Yeah, so first of all, it's for our employees in Europe because ⁓ in the US they have a very different set of rules and they can do a lot more than we can in Europe. So this is ⁓ primarily for our European colleagues because they need to adhere or ⁓ follow the European compliance ⁓ regulations. So we have created three ⁓ engaging, I would say, modules that consist of some textual sections, some short quizzes, and some realistic scenarios that help our employees understand how to use their personal media platforms, social media platforms more safely and in a compliant manner. And we do all this ⁓ not because we want to be a compliance police, but because we want our employees to feel encouraged and empowered. to use their social media accounts to engage with and share content that they find interesting and relevant and in that sense become an ambassador for the company. ⁓ So they can share, ⁓ we basically tell them that there are three areas of content that they can share. ⁓ First of all, they can share corporate branding that would be, you know, what is ALK as a company? ⁓ and they can share some employer branding. What is it like to work for ALK? ⁓ You know, if people got promoted or they are, you know, are just, you know, happy with their career move or something like that, or if they want to share a job post or, you know, come join us, be my colleague or ⁓ stuff like that. So corporate branding and employer branding. And then they can talk about allergies in general. So they cannot talk to our products, but they can talk to allergies and how allergies affect people. ⁓ know, some kind of hay fever, what is hay fever? How does it affect you? ⁓ Stuff like that. So in general terms. So we actually have this course built in a very positive way because we want to encourage people to. to feel safer when they go on LinkedIn and not be a police so people stay away. So that is really what we want to achieve here.

speaker-0: Are you succeeding?

speaker-1: I think we are. We see more people go on LinkedIn and just today I had someone sending me an email say, hi, Mike, I already did the course and now I would like to communicate on LinkedIn. So there are just some minor details that I would like to ask you just to make sure I do it right. So people do want to communicate on LinkedIn and they want to do it in the right way. And that's fantastic because before they were like more like, no, we cannot communicate anything, because what if we do it wrong? And I see a shift there.

speaker-0: Yeah, it makes me wonder, even in areas or in companies outside of pharma, and there are lots of other types of companies that has these kinds of restrictions too, obviously, but just a regular business to business company or even a business consumer company, I think many are actually struggling quite a lot with getting employees to take that ambassador position. because employees are afraid of doing something wrong. It may not be like, you know, wrong in the sense that it's wrong at your guy, at you guys, because it will be legally wrong, but it may just be not in the tone of the company or something like that. Like a simple, simple thing. Whereas do you find that the fact that you've been more or less forced into creating this ⁓ learning program, this how to do LinkedIn or how to do... ambassador, how to do, I guess even thought leadership, you could call it that. Do you find that that is a gateway to getting people to actually participate more, to be more ambassadors? ⁓ yes, definitely.

speaker-1: ⁓ definitely. Definitely. What we've seen is that since we launched this compliance course or program, ⁓ people or employees have paid much more attention to LinkedIn. And I have someone in my team who is responsible for corporate social media. And what she has seen is that leaders from different parts of the company, from different organizations within the company have reached out to her and asked, could you please come and do a short presentation on our next meeting with their employees or their leaders or whatever? And just give us a quick update on some of the things that you think that we should pay attention to because we would very much like to communicate on LinkedIn. And some of us are are there just with a profile. We like stuff, but we've never posted anything. And now that we have taken the course, we would very much like to get started. So there is an increase of interest in going to LinkedIn and try it out now that they feel that they have a little bit of skills. And so we have been sharing this presentation across the company for so many different people. She traveled to Sweden to do a presentation. She has done an online presentation for a big international group of people. And we definitely see that many of them, they go to LinkedIn now and try it out. they're ⁓ really sweet because some of them also wanted to share their post with us beforehand, right? ⁓ I done this post. I know you're busy. Could you please just have a quick look at it? I just want to make sure I do it right. So it's definitely a gateway to an increased interest and many more ambassadors for sure.

speaker-0: I think it's really fascinating how you managed to flip the story off. Well, you could have also been perceived in the company as the LinkedIn police. Running around taking down posts, asking people to not post this and that.

speaker-1: ⁓ yes. And we have done that previously. That's fair to also share that before we the course. Because we created the course, if you cannot show that you have trained your people, then you need to be able to do that. So that's why we of course had a setup before where everybody needed to go through a guide because you must do that. And ⁓ so creating a course that is very comprehensive and you know exactly what you have taught the employees and you know that you have covered the entire spectrum of questions that are needed within this field and you have had the course itself through medical legal review ⁓ and approval, then you know that you're home safe and then you can tell your people to go and share because you know that they have learned it and that they can take responsibility and that you are compliant and that's important because we must be. I'm not saying we were not compliant before, I'm just saying that now we can measure it in a more specific way.

speaker-0: Yeah, and also, I guess that you can also, it's easier for you to allow employees to go post on LinkedIn on their own without having to send it through you.

speaker-1: We would never ask them to send it through us, right? Because they are obliged to ⁓ see our, you know, go through our social media guide. That's something that we share with them on their first day on the job, right? This is important. You need to go through the social media guide. ⁓ So they would never share a post with us. We could not handle that either way. But with the course, we can just be much more specific. ⁓ And one thing that we decided before we created the course was we want this to be, you know, to be created in a positive way. We do not want this to be a police, compliance police course. You cannot do this. You cannot do that. Of course, they need to know what they cannot do, but it was more important for us to then focus on, okay, now we have shown you, you know, all the limitations there are because we are in a regulated industry. Let us show you. what you can do and that there is so much you can share on LinkedIn related to the company, your job, your successes, things that make you proud, things you wanna share about your team or whatever, or a course you've attended, or you've been traveling to a different affiliate or whatever. So there's so many things you can share and that is what we have focused on. Once you have learned the compliance rules, Then it's time to show you how can you work around this, you know, within this framework.

speaker-0: You mentioned in the beginning that your approval process, not when we're talking employees, but when we're talking your own corporate stuff, that your approval process is a little bit longer. And I think that's one of the things that really, can really, ⁓ I hate to say like kill creativity, but it can really make people in... Creative people, can really kill their creativity. It can really feel like a hard restriction if something takes too long. The approval processes that you have set up, because before turning on the microphones, you said to me that you actually thrive in this and you found a way to maybe not enjoy, but at least find some kind of ⁓ professionalism and professional growth. in having to work around this, call it red tape, call it approval processes. Can you maybe take me through, how is the, just really short, how is the approval process from idea to now we can actually post on LinkedIn, just to kind of give us an idea of whether it looks like something that other people in maybe other industries, would, you know, they can recognize.

speaker-1: Yes. If we just take a social media post, we communicate two, three times per week on our corporate LinkedIn. In my previous jobs, that would be something that we decided on an editorial and then ⁓ someone created it and a subject matter expert or someone responsible for that area within the business would then... a comment on it and finally approve it and you would go and post it. So that would not take long and it would be a different person approving it every time because you would communicate within different areas ⁓ in the company. So when you have a compliance setup in a pharmaceutical company, you need to know where the cornerstones are so that you know and you learn that over time. Rather quickly, to be honest, you need to, right? ⁓ So not to step on the wrong side of the fence, right?

speaker-0: That's outside as well. Yeah. Come back in.

speaker-1: ⁓ So what we do is we have an idea of what we want to talk about. could be ⁓ within, let's say, hay fever, for example. ⁓ We would like to talk about, ⁓ for example, hay fever as a birch. That could be birch that you would be allergic to. spring is coming and we would like to create a post about ⁓ What can you do to prepare yourself for the coming pollen season? ⁓ We know that there are certain words and products and terms that we cannot use. So we try our best to create the post without using these terms. The next thing is that we would send this to our medical legal review team. We have a system that all pharmaceutical companies have. They have a system set up for exactly this because you also ⁓ now then get audited on it to make sure that you follow all the rules. we have a setup where ⁓ we put up all these texts ⁓ and then someone from the medical legal team will see it as a task in their inbox in this system and they will do a review. they have comments, If they have something that we are not allowed to say, they will write it and then they will send it back to us. Then we need to give it another round, correct the specific terms, write it in a different way and upload it again for a second review. When they give us approval, then we can post it. ⁓ So sometimes we also have our internal subject matter experts. it's, for example, ⁓ within respiratory allergies, ⁓ then someone who knows most about respiratory allergies within that therapy area, will then have to also approve from a ⁓ subject matter expert point of view. So we have more people who need to go through our content and that is why we need to prepare very well in advance.

speaker-0: Yeah, because I was just about to ask how long does this process take? Is it two weeks or is it two months?

speaker-1: Yeah, it could be both. It could be both. ⁓ The things that are a bit more difficult is when you have, for example, videos that you create videos because then you could have a long voiceover or people talking. ⁓ And then all this ⁓ talk or voiceover needs to be transcripted and sent for review. And there could be minor details that would need ⁓ to be changed. And if that is people speaking, then maybe you will need to have a new speak or other things that would need to be changed. But I would say we have done it ⁓ quite a lot now. we know more or less 99 out of 100 times what to say and what not to say. So the more you do it, the faster it goes, of course, because the fewer comments you will have and sometimes you will get an immediate approval because it's completely complying with what you share.

speaker-0: What's the trick? What's the trick to not be very irritated with this long process?

speaker-1: Yeah, that's a good question, Miguel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, for someone like me who, you know, like you said before, I thrive in, you know, in this area, you know, I don't see it as restrictions. To me, it's more a challenge. How can I say what I want to say within these limitations?

speaker-0: to a friend.

speaker-1: You know, how far can we go? What can we do? So to me, it's no longer a boundary. It's more of a framework and I can do a lot, I think, within this framework. But you're right, to some people, this is simply too many constraints to have them thrive in it. So it's definitely not for everyone, especially not if you're a creative person to work in the pharmaceutical industry. You know, if you feel like you have your hands tied on your back all the time.

speaker-0: Yeah. What, what would your recommendations be to, to companies? It could be in the pharmaceutical area, but it could actually also be outside because like I said earlier, your, your case is extreme with your constraints and restrictions, but all companies have some sort of restriction, some sort of wording that they won't don't want to use. ⁓ a classic example would be the use of sustainability as a word. So we have this sustainable product, blah, blah, blah. If you say that. you really have to have all your documentations right. Otherwise it's screen washing, right? So that's like a classical example where you really have to weigh your words. What's your recommendation to companies who wants to maybe put their content creation into a system that checks for all of this, but still kind of... make sure that things go through because I think what can often happen is if you don't have that system, a post is still, it's just a post so it may be forgotten. If it takes three weeks, it's like, what's it worth? Do you know what I mean? Forget about that post and then we'll just move on, whatever. What's your recommendation? What should people do?

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. think first of all, ⁓ you would need acceptance because you can have so many discussions on what to do and what not to do and one would want to go to the right and the other one wants to go, you know, go left. So I think the first thing is to accept that we have set up a set of limitations or boundaries or a corner flags or whatever you want to call it. So ⁓ people should agree on, you know, we will communicate within these corner flags. And until you have agreed on that, you will have endless discussions. So it's just a matter of sitting down and defining what do we want to say within the area of sustainability? How do we want to communicate it? And if we decided on it, that this is what we're gonna do, we have written it down, we have... you know, talk to our stakeholders, this is what we're going to do, then stick with it. And then find a way within those corner flags to talk about it, because there are endless possibilities. There really are. And I know that for sure, because we do it all the time, try to communicate as much as possible within the area of allergy without mentioning, you know, ⁓ any kind of treatment or ⁓ product names or, ⁓ you know, we still managed to tell so much about allergy and about our company and about, about employer branding and, the approval flow can be, ⁓ something that you just, you know, set up in advance. So instead of having all these ad hoc processes that, that sometimes tend to have it if you don't have to plan. decide on, let's think a little bit more forward than we usually did and make sure that we start, instead of starting three days in advance, then we start three weeks in advance. And I know you cannot always do that because things pop up, but with the majority of your communication, you can definitely make a plan ⁓ well in advance because if you know what's coming for ⁓ a publicly listed company, definitely know what's coming four times a week. That's a quarterly financial announcement. Then you have conferences coming up every year that you know that you can communicate about. have seasonal stores, et cetera. All those seasons. No, so they can be planned ahead and have a thorough approval flow in all industries.

speaker-0: They don't change too much. Yeah, and also if you have, if we say that that's maybe 80, 90 % of all your posts, if you had that kind of well in advance planned and that's through a more or less automated approval flow, then you can divert your attention to the things that pop up that working on right now and maybe needs publishing tomorrow.

speaker-1: Yeah, exactly, because we always have that. We always have that. We have things popping up that, you know, then there's a certain agenda that we need to ⁓ communicate about because it's suddenly popped up in media or in society or whatever. ⁓ someone is attending a conference that would be great to communicate about. We're informed about it ⁓ a little late, but we still manage to do it because we have our thorough approval flow going on with the rest of what we're doing. So I think all teams can set up a more strict approval flow if they really want to.

speaker-0: Can I ask you if, and if you don't want to share it, it's fair enough, but can I ask you just as a final question, what that approval flow, what are the tools? Like what does it actually look like? Is it, you know, is it basically just, okay, when I have this ready, I send an email with this content to that person or do you have like a tool where you kind of work it through or how do you actually do it? Like in the real nitty gritty?

speaker-1: Yeah, I think, you know, if you're outside the pharmaceutical world or industry, then you would just do it by email. But when you are a pharmaceutical company, you have a system where you upload all the materials. So if I were to, if I wanted to create a LinkedIn post or a text for the website, I would simply upload that text into the system and then you know, the person who should make the medical legal review would then get a notification that there is a new task in the system that he or she needs to look at and comment on or give final medical legal approval. ⁓

speaker-0: I think that's interesting and okay, it's for the pharmaceutical industry that makes sense because you have to have a system so you can also document that you are doing it in the right order and doing everything right. But I think so many companies that would still benefit from having something similar, maybe not a system as elaborate as the one you describe here, but even just having a Trello board or have a Notion page or whatever it is, have something. some kind of systematized approach to the approval. And yes, if you can even send notifications to the people who's responsible, that really becomes, think, if not powerful, then at least a lot more. It's a lot easier to keep your overview and keep knowing what's happening and make sure that everything comes out according to schedule.

speaker-1: Yeah, definitely. And what you learn is you really learn to plan when you're ⁓ sitting right here. you don't know, ⁓ first of all, you could say that if I upload a text that I would need to have approved, then I can set a deadline as to when I need this text to be approved by. ⁓ But if it comes back with a lot of comments, ⁓ then I will need to to redo it and then upload it again and then I could be delayed. So it's up to me to make sure that I upload the text in advance and in due time to make sure there is enough time for an extra approval flow if what I uploaded is not yet correct, right? So.

speaker-0: I think that's brilliant. Magnus Anderson, our time is already up. It flew this one, but I think it's just... It's interesting because it sounds like, ⁓ you know, content compliancy. It's not a sexy title, quite, but I feel like so many, especially I think business to business companies, they're really struggling with this exact thing and you've just solved it at a level that's ⁓ pretty unheard of, I think. So I think there's a lot to learn from what you're doing, systematize stuff, be well in advance and also sort the things that what can actually be done well in advance. The seasons, know, the weekly financial reports, you know all these, you know everything is coming. So why not just make them? Why not just make the Easter post when it's Christmas time? Because you know what Easter looks like. it's not like, know, springtime is still springtime, right?

speaker-1: Yeah, you know exactly when people start to have pollen allergies. So we know more or less when to share those posts. We follow the numbers of the pollens in my team, so we know when to post.

speaker-0: That hard. It's a new meaning of follow the numbers. ⁓ And actually one thing I want to recap also because we've covered actually two different things. So this is the be well in advance and systematize, but also the fact that you've actually managed to empower your employees to be more active on the channels because you've had to create an extensive learning program. And I think that's the thing that many companies they could actually take to heart.

speaker-1: I

speaker-0: Are you educating your employees enough for them to feel safe in being your own ambassadors? I think that's a good question. And it's also all we have time for. Magne Riese-Ansen again, thank you so much for joining this interview.

speaker-1: Thanks a lot for having me. was a pleasure.

speaker-0: And to the listeners out there, if you found this interesting, of course, give it a like or give it a share. Maybe you know someone who could do with a little bit more compliance themselves. This would be a good episode to send them. Thank you so much for joining. And if you have any questions, hit me up at podcast at montanous.co. You can find that link in the description below. And I think with that, I just want to say, see you all on another planet in the content universe.