Marquise Davon: And welcome back to another episode of Keeping It A Bean. Keeping It A Bean is a podcast that brings together conversation and culture all over a cup of coffee, water, tea, whatever you drink in. But you get it, Keeping It A Bean, coffee, bean. Boom, thank you. Thank you. And if you are new here, my name is Marquise, Marquise Davon. Don't ever call me Mark in your life. If you are a returner, please make sure I try to tell the people, do not call me Mark. You can call me Keese, Marquise, this American Negro. You call me Mark? guillotine all of them death to all But if you are returning you already know what it is hit that rate and review if I am your Monday morning drive However, if you are watching these two lovely faces right on here hit that like and subscribe button Make sure to leave a comment tell a friend to tell a friend to tell a friend You already know what it is and I appreciate you and welcome back If you want to be able to support this here podcast, you can do so in a multitude of ways. Again, I told you word of mouth will always do it for me. When you see clips go out, please make sure to share those, engage in a comment, and you're going into the streaming platforms as well. Please make sure that that rate and review is how we show up in the algorithm a lot more as podcasters. That's always super important. So if you don't know, now you know. But if you want to just support me here personally, make sure to buy a cup of my, buy a bag of my coffee Leroy's. That is a black-owned coffee brand that I have founded over a year ago now. And every single time that you buy a bag of my coffee, you are also donating to an HBCU scholarship fund. So please put some impact behind that dollar as well. I'll leave all of that information in the link below. That's it. We done. We gonna get into the show, y'all. And so, y'all, I am excited. I am excited. we are gonna be talking around Zendaya and Robert Pattinson's new movie, The Drama. And I am even more excited to be in conversation with Mr. Ray Love Jr. This man is, welcome to the show, man. Welcome to the show. Yes, I was super excited. ⁓ So I needed to talk to somebody about this damn movie. I wanted to, saw, I said, this is mess. RAY LOVE JR.: What up? Happy to be here. Marquise Davon: I have many feelings, there are many perspectives, and I had just been like, anybody wanna talk on it? Cause I'm just put it out there. And you say, yeah, right here. And when I tell you, I'm so excited for one, my audience get to know you, even a conversation we had prior to here, I know that folks are gonna enjoy you as a person. And then not only are you this big multi-hyphenate professional. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Marquise Davon: You also serve as the mark on the marketing communications team with the Sundance Institute some niggas be watching movies anyways You are a movie Enthusiast as well and so even for you to be the podcast host well one of the hosts of the seated which is the blackest show about Movies which gives us a weekly episode of insightful and engaging discussions. I said hold on now Of the latest movies in the box office through the black gaze. That is GAZE RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Yes, but also yes. Hello. How you doing? Marquise Davon: Or you can do G-A-Y-S too, okay? She said double entendre, how you doing? And I love it, because even in this part of the conversation, when you first were talking, you were just like, I will fill in the gaps for where the critic is at. I am the every man as I am engaging in the movies. And me personally, I love that because it is a conversation on like, how do movies impact real life and inform real life? And I love that. So the couple episodes I got to like be able to watch. and the clips that I see online, I'm like, ⁓ these are some thinking ass niggas. I said, I like how y'all watch movies. Like, yes! And so I just want to welcome you to the show. Thank you for making some time. Time is one thing that we do not get back. So the fact that you're choosing to spend it here for this hour and some change, I thank you and appreciate you. How you feeling? RAY LOVE JR.: I feel great. So first off, thanks for that wonderful intro. I am really excited just to be able to continue having conversations about the movies. Like that is something that I'm really passionate about. And when I saw the drama, I was ready to talk to any and everybody willing to engage in the conversation because I had thoughts and I just knew other folks had thoughts. And once this movie hit the general population, the people had thoughts and I was like, yes, let's get into it. love. Marquise Davon: Baby. RAY LOVE JR.: The first thing I said when I walked out of that movie was that I wish we got more of these films because I just knew it was going to incite hella conversations that I was ready to indulge in. So here we are. Marquise Davon: And yes, we shall indulge indeed. And so for the audience, we are gonna be able to look through this episode by some of our quick reactions to the film. Who actually had the worst drama? ⁓ Intent versus impact is the act more. And then also just thinking around Emma's character overall and what this means as transformational, but also could this be a story of prevention as this is a dark humor with actually very strong social commentary, especially within the incel culture and stuff like that. And not only that, we can talk a little bit around our own relationship to shame, because that's kind of what this was talking around. What is the most shameful thing you have done? And what does it mean to commit to a person in life in this moment too? And so I'm really excited to explore these themes with you. But before we get to all of that, we are going to go through the keeping it a bean segment and everybody gets to enjoy this moment. This is your icebreaker. You're keeping it a bean, keeping a hundred, your hot take, whatever you got going on. And so this can be personal, political, pop culture, whatever you need it to be. I will start and model for you. So you have a little bit more time to think about it. And then if you have thoughts on my hot take, you can engage. If not, we keep it pushing, whatever the case may be. So I will start off. If I am going to keep it a bean today, ⁓ way most are the downfall to society. I need everybody to sit with that. RAY LOVE JR.: Yes. Marquise Davon: I got in my first one when I went to LA this past couple weeks ago and I was fearful for my life. I said, excuse me. There was a point in time I was in there. There were three Waymos in a row and I don't know what are those little delivery box thingies. Whatever those are, they were all out of the corner and for 10 seconds everything was at a standstill. I said, this is dystopian. Where are the humans at? No human interaction? RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, yeah, I see that. I see that and maybe I am a part of the problem because I was here in LA when all of the Waymo was introduced and I was someone who was just more curious about it. And as someone who was taking frequent cars, I was like, actually, what would it be like to not have to deal with a random talking Uber driver who wants to get into the business of things that I did not ⁓ welcome them into? Marquise Davon: You You are not invited. RAY LOVE JR.: Right, you may have overheard me say something on the phone as I got in the car and now it's a point of conversation that despite me marking this ride as a quiet preference, you are still deciding to ⁓ go full Ricky Lake on me right now. I don't need that conversation, but I have appreciated a way more too in my time, but I also understand the hesitation and trusting automated anything in this age we're trying to exist in because as we know, We've seen enough movies to understand what happens when this technology goes sentient and you don't want to be the one in that way mode when that thing go wrong. Marquise Davon: I'm I'm telling you, in my mind, all I thought about, you know that movie the Obama's produced, it's like at the end of the world or whatever it was. And when all of them cars lined up, I said, so if the satellite go down and all of it stopped working and everybody's stuck in a way Mo and can't get out. Yeah. Truly and honestly. So I think just the over automation of convenience and life. RAY LOVE JR.: ⁓ yeah, yeah. Yeah. Real, real, I understand it. Marquise Davon: will then make us an even more isolated society at large. And so maybe I shouldn't have watched like Ex Machina a couple of weeks ago either. And so I'm really in my sci-fi bag right now, but yes. RAY LOVE JR.: Another great 824 film, if I do say so. Yes. Marquise Davon: Top tier, top tier. And I gotta say, A24 for me, I love that I see A24 and Apple TV Plus as programs that really do allow, they really allow the creative to shine. I said, if I were to ever have to work for one of those studios and really do some really like impactful work, but also like some avant-garde stuff if I wanted to, or taking a chance to let something breathe, they are not chasing. RAY LOVE JR.: Speak on it. Marquise Davon: They're not engaging in late stage capitalism. They don't need to do the big blockbuster to then do a movie that they want to do. They just put it out because they don't, that's not the primary focus of their platform regardless. And so I think that for me has been really exciting. Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, I've been nervous about them as they're trying to scale because they're, you know, starting to get into more big budget movies and campaigns. ⁓ It makes me nervous, but also they are very artist friendly studio. And I hope that they continue to stay that because some of my favorite works have come from, I mean, my God, Moonlight, come on. They're the home of Moonlight. Don't need to say more, ⁓ but yeah, I'm wishing on that for sure. Marquise Davon: Come on. Come on. Yes, so that's me. That's my hot take. Ray, Mr. Love Jr., it's you. RAY LOVE JR.: All right. Man, look, I got to keep it up being with you, Marquis. I am exhausted with outrage marketing. As someone who has worked in the marketing and publicity side of things for over 10 years now, it frustrates me how much these studios and producers have started to lean into using the form of outrage marketing to get conversation stirring around their movies. And while I understand there are real cultural consequences and struggles of black filmmakers, I am completely sick of this box office activism that they're trying to force the culture into every time a black movie is released. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: It's always support this black movie so that we can get the studios to see that there's a black audience for us to be able to create and have a proof that if you green light our films, it'll be worth the investment. It's exhausting. Like make the movie good, create a marketing campaign that supports the value or the quality of the film itself, and stop trying to tell us time and time again that we have to... Marquise Davon: I'm tired. RAY LOVE JR.: overperform in order to get crumbs because we've done it enough times at this point. Ryan Coogler has done billion dollar movies. We've seen the success of smaller movies like ⁓ American Fiction that has overperformed the box office and are going to go on to win accolades. And it's just like, at this point, how much more do we have to prove? And also as a culture within our own communities, I want us to stop. Marquise Davon: over and over again. RAY LOVE JR.: perceiving the value of getting green light by a studio as the ultimate measure of good black movies and cinemas. There are other spaces. I want people to really understand what creating your own means. Like they keep saying, create your own, do your own thing. It's like, yes, if we're going to do that, understanding this effort to dismantle this structure requires more than getting a studio. You have to really commit to the thing. There are people out here releasing movies independently with deals through AMC and there are black films out right now that people are just not supporting because they don't know about them. It's just like, it's unfortunate that people aren't instead seeking out those small creators and filmmakers and waiting for Hollywood to see them when it's like, it's been over a hundred years of this thing and they don't want to see us. You have to seek this thing out and stop trying to bait us with your out. rage marketing and talking points. Like I get it Nina, girl, we want to see your work too, but damn, I feel like you're rage baiting us into this conversation in a way that I know you don't intend, but I see it being more. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: complex of a conversation than just saying, go see you, and Tuscany so that Hollywood can green light my movie. Like, ⁓ all right, I get it. Marquise Davon: Yeah, Tuscany. That's, and to me, think that's exactly, you named it, because I was like, I had recently seen that, and I was just like, we know that black rom-coms absolutely have done well because we know we have our classics. said, whether you want to call it Love Jones, whether you want to call it ⁓ Love and Basketball, whether you want to call it The Best Man Holiday, well, I don't know if that's really rom-com, that's a really tragic movie, but you know. Movies that include romance. was just like for me Rye Lane was one that I found to be super successful in terms of like I was like this feels good I said the photograph I actually enjoyed it for like being able to just sit and watch it through and So just looking at what is it love Brooklyn? I said I thoroughly but I'm also a big Andre Holland fan. So like seeing him engage in love. RAY LOVE JR.: Ooh, naturally beautiful. Ooh. If Treville were here, they would understand what's happening right now. But Andre Holland is my man, my man, my man. And on Seated, I'm always talking about going to see his movies. Andre Holland had three movies in theaters last year that I didn't see anybody talk about. Marquise Davon: Interesting. Three movies, three movies, three movies and a play. Exhibiting Forgiveness was my favorite film that went out last year or 20 or the end of 2024. When I tell you him and Andre Day put out quality work, I got to go see him do my brother's, what is it? My brother's, not my brother's keeper. It's my brother's something. And so watching him do that play, that is one of my favorite, that's one of my favorite actors of all time. RAY LOVE JR.: and a play. Mm-hmm. Yes. Marquise Davon: And so being able to see his work and then funny enough, a couple of weeks ago, I actually saw him in a cafe in Philly. And so I just went up to him. I was just like, Hey, I don't mean to interrupt your coffee, but I just want to let you know, exhibiting forgiveness healed something in me personally. And so like, that was like a movie that I'm, I'm going to be doing some programming around, get some people from black men heal and all of that. So we can all observe this movie together, but also kind of engage in like, what does forgiveness look like? Who is forgiveness for and all of that. RAY LOVE JR.: Uh-uh. Marquise Davon: but just being able to give him his flowers. so side tangent, but to bring it back to watching how folks need to feel like we need to rally behind a purpose rather than just saying, right now black folks want to feel good. I liked the idea of people trying to do a little Barbenheimer situation and say, you, me and the drama all in one weekend, let's get some mess. Let's get some feel good. said, because this is what giving me Emily in Paris, but make a black. Like. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Yeah. Bring back fun just for the sake of like enjoying the thing and engaging with the thing. Yes, like make that your calling card. Like make that the thing, just like bringing people to theaters. Like that's the whole point of Seated. Like the mission of Seated is to instigate the black movie going experience because I think we as a people, we just love experiencing something together. Like that togetherness and community of it all is what makes the experience. And so give me something. Marquise Davon: whimsy. Yes. RAY LOVE JR.: that makes it feel like it is appointment viewing, required viewing. Like I need to set this on my calendar and take me and my girls, me and the gaggle to see this this weekend. And just like make it about the art, make it about whatever's present in the film and not about all of the discourse that can be created because of the identity of the creators themselves. So that's gonna be my being. I don't wanna get too deep in it. Cause I know that Marquise Davon: The guy go, come on. RAY LOVE JR.: people already getting the typing fast about me not wanting to engage in this type of discourse, but here we are. Marquise Davon: Bye-bye. Cause in my, it's all good. In my brain, Nina girl, all you need to do is get other people to talk around their meet cutes. And if you can get people to talk around their meet cutes in order to then go to the movies and just say, when did you fall in love with your person or how did you fall in love with your person? I'm fully here for, I watch meet cutes on a regular. How did y'all meet? RAY LOVE JR.: And I don't want to diminish our experience. Like I get it. Like that rejection and that like, that message being told that your thing can't go unless this other thing does well. I understand that frustration. I couldn't get nobody to support Seated. So we did it ourselves and just say, you know what? My mission is the community. My mission is building this thing and creating this thing for folks who look and live like me and just putting it out and readjusting. Marquise Davon: Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: what's valuable about this experience and my work as opposed to, you know, trying to force somebody else to see my value, child, because that is, that's the cycle, that's the system. Like the more we allow them to force us to engage in that way, the more power they have to make us feel small or make us feel like we're not, we don't have the power to green light ourselves. So yeah, I'm off my high horse. Let's keep this thing being. Marquise Davon: Yeah. Ciao, man. Right. Now, I love it. We go, okay. And if you are looking for other creators that you want to be able to enjoy, I also just subscribe to Natives. ⁓ They're Patreon as well. And so that's a Black Queer web series that is coming out. And if you want to be able to support Black Queer filmmakers and web series creators, please make sure you do that. Just Latasha is another person. I love being able to support her work as well. So really just really engaged. So if you know any people, put them in the chat, you already know what it is, ⁓ and all that good stuff. But yeah, no, thank you, Frank. That was such a good keeping it up being like, that's a separate conversation all on itself. No, it is appreciated. And so now we are gonna steep into the drama of it all. And so I have been super excited to go see this movie. I always enjoy. RAY LOVE JR.: the best I could do off the dome. Yeah, you know. Marquise Davon: Zendaya film to kind of figure out like where is she gonna grow as an actress? What kind of complicated woman is she gonna be playing this time around? Because I think she picks she makes very intentional decisions on making sure she picks roles that are not intended for black women And so she kind of goes into like this colorblind but because of who she is we can ascribe some shit to it as well, which I think Engages us as viewers fundamentally differently, which I think teased out a lot more in this conversation surrounding her character, the racial dynamics, all of that good stuff. But before we fully delve into like all the nuances, I just wanna know what like was your base reaction? If you're rating this a one through 10, why are you doing that? RAY LOVE JR.: Okay, so first I have to push back on the one through 10 system rating system. I am someone who follows the five star rating metric. Yes, yes. It's it's just simpler. It's just my preference, you know. Everyone has their thing, but it's for me, I'm like, let's just do one through five because it's easier to track, think. And so it's like, you five stars, you five stars and we know what five star mean, but my, exactly. Marquise Davon: ⁓ are you a one? The five star? My bad, get into your letter box. Yes. So let's go one through five. Period. Okay, I'm a five star chick and I'm sorry. RAY LOVE JR.: You picking up and I'm putting down. But walking out of the drama, my immediate star rating was a four out of five stars. The thing that could have really bumped it up to five stars would have been them beefing up this conversation or the identity of this very obviously black character in this film. But I had such a good time in this movie. I was laughing in moments that I probably shouldn't have been laughing. I was the only laughing voice in there and I was like, ooh, is it me? Like, am I the drama? Marquise Davon: Period. Am I? Okay. RAY LOVE JR.: Because like the movie is funny when it's not meant to be and also like a dark humor like even when I share my immediate reactions to the film and folks were like, are you, is this really something you recommend? I was like, you know, I recommend it but I also have to recognize that this is dark humor that might not land on some people but it's been great to see everyone who's going see it actually be able to kind of grasp onto the style of comedy that is present in this film. Yeah, that's where I'm at, four out of five stars. Marquise Davon: I am actually in the same boat. I gave it a four out of five. So I'll just round it from my 8.5 out of 10. ⁓ But I definitely gave it a four out of five for me. And it's actually for the same reasons, to be honest. I was like, I wish they would have invested a little bit more ⁓ into her story a little bit, because I think they were playing with some really decent elements. ⁓ And I think they also kind of just named it within it too. So I appreciated that they were able to just be like, RAY LOVE JR.: You Marquise Davon: Yeah, well, some women also engage in this thing and ⁓ being one of the few black girls type situation. ⁓ But I thought it was like a very interesting story for me and something that I learned from some of my film school homies. They were like, hey, this is actually like the direction of it and the cinematography is all based off of like Scandinavian art. And so based off of that, Scandinavian films and cinema really focus on dark humor. to really just prove a point. And so based off of that inspiration, they were like, ⁓ well, here's a list of other Scandinavian films that you would be able to kind of associate and see how the direction, how they utilize dark humor to make social commentary. It's all very much so like through and through here. And so that gave me a new appreciation. Cause I'm just like, ⁓ the nerd in me is about to go watch all of these other films that were recommended. so shout out, shout out to you, Ricky. Thank you. ⁓ But. Yeah, I was gonna say, and I actually really enjoyed the dynamic. I appreciated Zendaya's performance even more as it went on too. I had also realized, I was just like, I don't know, you know that scene in the Euphoria, like Zendaya acting down, like that's a different beast. And so at first when I saw this, I said, all right, if she's just playing like the character that I know her to play as like awkward, kinda, you know, a little moody, a little brutish. RAY LOVE JR.: Mm-mm. Yeah. Marquise Davon: But some of her acting choices this time around, I think were very highly complimented with Robert Pattinson being her opposite too. So that made me appreciate, I love the film even more as I sat with it longer. And that's how I'm at. I'm like, it's definitely a grower. RAY LOVE JR.: I think this is the time where I should ⁓ reveal or share that I saw this movie three times during opening weekend. So I have really fully dug into this story in ways that, you know, I don't typically do it with many films, but it was just that intriguing of a story for me. And to the Zendaya point of it all, I... Marquise Davon: Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: I was lured into this film because she was cast as the lead. And I was like, ⁓ this is a Zendaya film. Come to find out by the end of the movie. This story is really centered around the Robert Pattinson character, Charles. So yeah, yeah. I had to see it a few more times to really look at it from different perspectives for that point to understand kind of like what the filmmaker was trying to say ⁓ while trying not to assign what I wanted him to say throughout my experience. So yeah. Marquise Davon: Yup. This is... Around That Man. Charlie. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ thank you for naming that. Cause I think as a viewer, we kind of go in with that too of like, ⁓ we know who the big names are. And in my mind, I'm like, they're both big names, but I know we kind of lead with Zendaya because of the year that she's ultimately been having and her being much more into public imagination more than Robert Pattinson has been recently. But I love that too. And I said, before we even get into it then, based on each of your views of the film, Did you gain something new from it each time you've watched it? And like, what were some of those things? Like your first watch to your last watch, like what was that journey like for you? RAY LOVE JR.: So my first watch, I pretty much went in blind. I couldn't tell you what the drama was gonna be about walking in. I'm someone who actively avoids trailers because trailers have just gotten so terrible over the years to the point where they give away. If you are a frequent movie watcher as I am, it's really easy to decipher a lot of the plot points and twists from trailers these days because they've just been so bad. So. Marquise Davon: you They revealed everything. RAY LOVE JR.: I had actually watched the teaser trailer for this. So the one trailer I usually typically do watch as someone who works in the marketing side of film or has worked in marketing side of film is the teaser trailer is typically like the first trailer that's put out by a studio just to kind of like wet the palette of what the film is about. It's typically a bit more broad strokes about the film and their teaser trailer for this was so good in retrospect ⁓ because it hinges on Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: the scene with the photographer that I'm sure we'll get into later. ⁓ Yes, and so, exactly. So I could not really tell what this movie was about going in. And so I was blind. I was like, all right, I'm gonna watch this movie because I'm here for Zendaya. And so I watched it through that lens, like looking at or watching the film through the perspective of the Emma character played by Zendaya. ⁓ And then once we got to certain points, was like, ⁓ yeah, this is not. Marquise Davon: Love, Perik. Top tier performance. RAY LOVE JR.: Zendaya's film, like she's not the protagonist in this movie, which is why I had to see it a second time watching it through the POV of the Charlie character who was the ultimate protagonist in this film. ⁓ And so that was my second viewing. And my third viewing, I took my little sister who's 10 years my junior, she's 28, and ⁓ know, more squarely within Zendaya's peer group and target audience. Like she's the one who watched Zendaya when she was like on the Disney Channel. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: a show or whatever. Yeah. So I was really curious about how it landed on her peer group of folks and seeing if she responded the same way I was responding as like a millennial ⁓ or an older millennial. She's technically a millennial, just like, but she's like Gen Z really anyway. Yeah. And it landed on her too. So I was really watching it kind of through that lens or that experience with her. And so all three different experiences were Marquise Davon: Shake it up. Mm-hmm. She's a cusp. Yep. RAY LOVE JR.: really helped me to have a fuller picture of what this movie can do for the culture, at least the culture that I'm interested in. So, yeah. Marquise Davon: Yeah. Yeah, no, I thank you for like naming that third piece too, because I went in last week with my mentee. And so he, thing is to go watch a movie once a month together type situation and just talk around it. And so even after they're trying to clean up the theater, we're enthralled in conversation. Yeah. And so we're talking. And so for me, I'm like, my mind's immediately going to Albert Camus, the stranger and like is. RAY LOVE JR.: That's me, yep. Marquise Davon: Can I argue that this is an absurdist film because of how they decided to approach it? I'm thinking around like, well, this character is actually the worst because here, but when he's talking about it, he's like, but what if she's just still masking? And he's like, I can argue that she might still have this once ⁓ because of how we get so limited of what we want to see from her. We see a little bit, but like for the most part, RAY LOVE JR.: you Marquise Davon: there are points in the time where Zendaya's character isn't giving too much. And so for him, he was just like, yeah, but is Charlie wrong for feeling how he felt? Like is anybody wrong for feeling how they felt? And so that to me was an interesting conversation, because where he was like, ⁓ I can definitely play into where everybody's response to Zendaya was or Emma's character was. Whereas for me, I was like, she the only one who didn't do nothing wrong. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marquise Davon: And so it made into a conversation a little bit more around like, is the intent of the act worse than actually committing the act? Which I think gets honestly to like my question overall is like, for you, whose drama was the worst out of the four? RAY LOVE JR.: And see, I love that you shared that perspective because that's one of my favorite things about the power of movies, right? Is its ability to stir conversations across communities and cultures. We all watch the same story on screen, but we walk away with different perspectives based on our own lived experiences. And it's like, you can't expect folks to come to art or experience art without it filtering through. their personal trauma, their personal preferences, their lens on things. That's why, even when it comes, you know, I work in media, when it comes to the conversation around media being unbiased, it's like, yeah, right, but still someone is making a decision here and that decision is being filtered through some sort of experience. And so even the idea of trying to make something unbiased creates a binary saying that this is a biased perspective in itself becoming inherently biased. So it's so important, I think, for folks to remember that this is the point of movies. Like people are quick to condemn a thing and like try to ridicule a person or shame them for how they present a thing. But we have to remember like, all right, this is a piece of art that I have chosen to engage with and now I have opinions about it I wanna share those opinions, but also my opinions or my desire or need. ⁓ to be seen or to be understood in this piece may not be the intention of the creator themselves. ⁓ So it's a lot to wrestle with. And this is the point of our podcast, Seated. Like we try to unpack all of these complex and nuanced feelings with movies through our black gaze. ⁓ yeah, I'm with you on that. But to answer your question, I think the person, I actually think the two people who's... Marquise Davon: ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. And I... Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: mess was most harmful or the worst was actually a split between Charlie and homegirl Rachel. Marquise Davon: Rach, get into it, because I... Yes. RAY LOVE JR.: Because when you think about it, they both have been the source of another human's trauma in one way or the other. Rachel's ass went and locked this boy in a closet overnight? Who also is, yes, who's also, she, they describe as slow, which is child. ⁓ I just was like, you have been... Marquise Davon: differently abled on top of that. Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: the root cause of this person forever possibly developing a claustrophobia ⁓ disposition or with Charlie, he cyber bullied someone to the point that their whole family had to move. You are now the source of this person's insecurities for the rest of their lives. Like this is real harm. This is real psychological harm that you've inflicted on this person. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: But you see this black woman at this table sharing that she just had the thought or idea of bringing harm to people who have bullied her. And that is just so appalling. And your first response, reaction to that is not care or concern or curiosity even, but it's judgment. And this is a person that you claim to be in deep relationship with to the point of you marrying her and being her maid of honor. was like, also what I think people missed, which I thought was the smart. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: writing and directing decision is how they revealed each of their worst thing. Because with Rachel essentially being the person or the source to bring this conversation to the table and then forcing her black husband to share his thing and then not wanting to share her thing and then being forced to share her thing, her thing set the bar for where or what the worst thing could be. And then her reaction is essentially the thing that incited Charlie to even think that Emma's thing was so bad. Like, cause his initial reaction to her reveal was not as deep as it became, but it wasn't until Rachel pressed, right? It wasn't until Rachel pressed and everybody else's reaction became magnified. And even when he shared his thing, Marquise Davon: It wasn't that deep until he looked. RAY LOVE JR.: He was like, he was 14 when he did it and they were quick to defend him. His best friend and Rachel were quick to defend him, which should also say the best friend is a black man married to a white woman played by Mamadou Ache. And when he says his thing and he was 14, oh, you were just 14. You know, your frontal lobe wasn't developed until you were 25. They defended him and gave him an excuse out of it because of his age. But when Rachel shares the same thing and it was just an idea and she says she was 15, suddenly, Cause you were 15, you think that excuses this thing. And it's like, well, why does she get given the same grace or excuse as the white man who just shared an actual action that he took against someone causing them actual harm. That whole thing was frustrating. Like I was reactive. Other people in my theater was like, what you mean? Your cousin got shot into paralyze. She ain't shoot nobody. was a lie. It was this white woman. Marquise Davon: Right. RAY LOVE JR.: centering herself again in the story and making herself the victim as we have too many times witnessed in many different works. And it's just like their greatest weapon is their ability to create those white tears and make themselves a victim. Marquise Davon: Okay, they will throw them stones and hide their hands. I said, let's be clear about it. And that's so funny because I agree that both Charlie and Rachel are actually the biggest villains of the entire film. Rachel serving as the incited incident in terms of everything that's going on here. I said, girl, you started this. But what was even more interesting to me is I said, I don't even know if I trust you as a narrator either. Did they actually find the boy? RAY LOVE JR.: Yes. Right. Marquise Davon: I don't know if I believe you, I'm gonna be honest, cause I said, you sat there and lied in their face, even when they came and questioned. You actually have no idea, but you heard his screams. You heard him hitting at the door. RAY LOVE JR.: rights. This is just hitting me, but this is so, there's a through line to Emmett Till that is just right there. Marquise Davon: Right, right there, right there. But I think she is, to me, I said I know I had a visceral reaction. I said I've worked with a couple Rachels. RAY LOVE JR.: I put, child. Marquise Davon: but you are the one who can absolutely tell a story and you will think that you will be cleansed of your sins later on, because you need to get it out so bad. I said, this is what happens when you become, when you try to center yourself and be like, ⁓ no, well, I had a cousin. I said, girl, you wasn't even close to that cousin, come to find out. She said, she's family. I said, come on. ⁓ But then I think where to me, it's interesting because I... RAY LOVE JR.: Right. Marquise Davon: would also argue the thing that I was annoyed with when it came to Charlie's character is that he was so reluctant and could not find himself doing a bad thing or a shameful act. Like even it felt like he tried to pull that one out his ass, which made it seem like, cause as soon as I remember the words that they used was like, oh, you're disqualified, Emma, go. Like we want to know more about you. RAY LOVE JR.: Mm-hmm. Because do white men ever see anything they do as bad or harmful or worse? Right. He's just a boy. He's just a kid. Yeah. He's a grown ass man. Marquise Davon: I was just a boy. Boys will be boys. Like, and I told you off camera, I said, when I go up to support over at the youth prison, I'm like, these are young boys, 13, 14, who are getting tried as grown adults. I said, I don't want to hear that. And so even for me, I think Charlie's character was even more frustrating is because he himself acted as if he never committed something of harm. RAY LOVE JR.: These are actual boys. Marquise Davon: And I think for him, the entire moment of recognition that I think as a through line, when we get to his character towards the end, as it relates to Misha, I said, and now you've committed your act. Here's the worst thing you could have done for multiple reasons. ⁓ because Misha and Rachel, they were sisters. Okay, they are sisters. RAY LOVE JR.: Don't even get me into Misha, Trav. And we should say that Misha, for the folks listening, Misha is Charlie's co-worker. She's a character who ⁓ Charlie essentially commits, I don't want, are we giving away the movie? I mean, we already talked about some spoilers, but is this a? Marquise Davon: We're talking about some spoilers. I'm assuming I will put at the top for the people, spoiler alert, we are gonna actually just talk about the film in itself. Yeah, so go ahead. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, as he's having his weak white man moment, somehow he's driven to kiss this woman and then proceed to possibly try to engage in office coitus with her, but they stop before they go too far. Marquise Davon: Office coin, this is crazy, but yes, I love that. RAY LOVE JR.: getting her the reaction to the same thing that if she found out her boyfriend had planned a thing when he was 15 is to call the police. These white women love calling the police. Like, why is that your default? And even Charlie was like, that's a bit extreme for something that she didn't do. And it was also like 15 years ago. She was like, yeah, well. Marquise Davon: real quick. RAY LOVE JR.: He's a psychopath, he could probably kill me. It's like, so you're gonna call the police to indict somebody for what they could possibly do or what you think they could do based on a thought they had 15 years ago? White women love weaponizing the system, don't they? Marquise Davon: they will be so quick to weaponize this. Yeah, you better drink that too. Okay, a word. But even in their weaponizing system, I think I wanna even just take it into Charlie a little bit now too, because as his character is going through this, we see his unravel day after day after day after day. And something that I'm thinking around is the inability to kind of recognize when you yourself have been a villain of somebody else's story. We have all been there. We are humans. We are fickle. We fuck up, right? And so in that, I thought something was even interesting to follow up that conversation was then how he engaged with Judgment himself. When they saw their DJ doing some coke across the way or heroin, whatever they thought it was they were saying across the way, again, he's the one who pointed out the behavior. And so I think even for him, he was able, cause I go back to how he told his story and how it was so quickly disqualified. And he was like, ⁓ no, like I really can't think of anything. No, I don't think I've ever done anything like too crazy, blah, blah, blah. I realized a person who's never engaged in public shame because other people have not seen that will not recognize the ways in which that they are shaming others. And so I was just like, ⁓ you are very quick to judge this person and think that this told everything that you need to know about them. Girl, if my... RAY LOVE JR.: Yep. Marquise Davon: If my DJ does a little coke, okay, they probably have a great time at the party. Like, do I do it? No. But do the girls do it sometimes? sometimes. Okay. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, one of the things I was trying to sort through with this movie and the genre of it all, when I was trying to think about what the genre of this is, was like, this is... psychological thriller, kind of a little bit of a horror up in there. Yes, there's a jump scare in this movie that I was not expecting. was like, But I realized that the one thing in this film that made it a psychological thriller was the fact that they were using essentially social perspective or perception. Marquise Davon: They got some horror elements. Yes. RAY LOVE JR.: as the horror element. Like they were most afraid of how this thing was perceived or how their worst thing was perceived by other people. ⁓ So much so that it was just like, he felt the need to argue or make up argument points to justify her mental state at the time when he's talking to the two of them. And it's just like, ⁓ y'all are just scared of being judged. Like you're scared of. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: how this looks to the people who are closest to you or society and that is what makes it a horror thriller in itself. Marquise Davon: Yeah, and I love that, I love that, I love that a lot because even like the ever presence of violence throughout the entire thing, like even the poster alone going like this and going like this, I said, not they switched up the poster and like they had a little gun here, but then also they had it no longer like the shape of a finger gun. ⁓ But even then I paid attention, something I paid attention to is like, how is violence portrayed in the film? without it ever be like violence was consistently present. The ⁓ allusion to guns was present, but also the color red was very present within the film too. And even when they are drinking that smoothie that Emma's character makes, I said, it's a deep blood red. I said, so you yourself are drinking like this bloody concoction. And so like, what juice are you drinking that convinces yourself that this person is a killer? And so I'm like, even from the color theory aspect of it all, RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Yeah. Marquise Davon: I said they played with cool colors. I said they were tended to be in whites, blues, hues in the morning, ⁓ darker spaces. So when there were moments of red that were very apparent, it was drinking it, it was through ⁓ blood, it was the breaking of the nose type situation. We always saw ⁓ their white stained with red each time. ⁓ And so that's like the, ooh. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, yeah. You're talking to a purity thing there too, because you know, this is when you put red on white, white people see themselves as being pure and you're tainting this thing. And I believe all of those instances of the red on the white were on the character Emma until we got to the point of Charlie getting his ass knocked out of the inn, which is something interesting to wrestle with. I hadn't even thought about that until now. Marquise Davon: Yeah, ooh, that was good. said, wait, you made that, because there was definitely a shift that was how, ooh, you ain't Look, I'm here for it. ⁓ But even then, I think the other thing that I'm also thinking around, it really did make me think around the story of the stranger, because they use the court of public opinion in order. So his entire thesis is that the world is absurd because we must assign meaning to every little thing. And so this man is going through a trial. RAY LOVE JR.: Let's talk about movies all day, Marquise Davon: And throughout the trial, they're like, well, you didn't cry when your mom passed away. You just randomly shot a person. You went along with this thing, but there's no reason that you did it. And so the jury must assign meaning of being like, well, maybe he was distraught. Well, maybe it was this. And so that's where my brain immediately went. It's just like, ⁓ this is the court of public opinion. And so based off the perception will deem you guilty or not guilty based off the worst thing that you have committed that you're before you commit to each other. RAY LOVE JR.: Right. Marquise Davon: And so like, how do you wrestle with that? So I thought even that scene specifically when Charlie felt the need to lie for Emma, cause Emma never felt the need to lie. Emma. RAY LOVE JR.: Right, she always told him, don't make excuses for me. Like even when he tried to say, ⁓ didn't you have a friend who died? She was like, yeah, but this is not that and this is not related to that and I didn't witness this. And then he exact took that story and exaggerated it to try to prove a point to someone else. Yeah, it was interesting to see how that played out through Charlie. So when I was watching the movie through his perspective, I was like, ⁓ this is what's happening here. Marquise Davon: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ I can't wait to go watch this movie a second time after talking to you. ⁓ And so I think what's interesting for me, love earlier in the conversation, something you had brought up was like entering the space to one, how your lens informs how you view the film. But then also when you brought your sister in, when I brought my mentee in, it's funny because there is a disagreement I'm having on threads with one woman. I don't know her name, but whatever the case may be, the disagreement is, Emma's character as a child and so it's also the same similar disagreement I had with my mentee in terms of being like well, she's still faking it she's still capable of doing this thing and for me I've realized like in the world like as a former teacher education world in education now I'm really thinking around like the child's identity formation and development and so the care the moment when we go back into Emma's character's past and as a teenager and we see her being rendered invisible. She's the only black girl at this predominantly white institution. We don't see her parents around too often. She has access to this gun. But then the first time where most people are like, ⁓ push her into a locker, people bump her, she stomps through the puddle. We see all of that stuff happening. The first time she's officially felt seen is when they are forced to walk around after that act of violence, that gun violence happened in their town and... this boy looks at her and stares her in the eye. And in my mind, how I looked at it was, ⁓ it's not her like dissociating or just creating another character or how they use in the film, which we'll get to a little later is let's start over and meet again. ⁓ In my mind, I said, as a kid who was not seen and when you are finally seen, not only like physically, but also you feel like, somebody else was going through what I was going through. She got into the mind of not. RAY LOVE JR.: Mm-hmm. Marquise Davon: of the actual shooter, but she also got into the mind of somebody who was also on their way to becoming an incel because she lacked community. And so I think even that in itself, for me, I said that might've been the most heartwarming thing outside of her being like, no, there are girl shooters too. Cause that shit took me out. said, am I supposed to laugh? I said, cause that was funny. RAY LOVE JR.: And then giving us the actual case study of, was like, ooh, you really are deep in it. what, right, what I found really, I guess, warming was that the thing that caused her to, I guess, come to her senses was her finding community. And the source of her even wanting to do this was feeling like she didn't belong or have a place where she belonged. Marquise Davon: Cause I sat there, said, girl, how you know that? RAY LOVE JR.: the moment she was seen and it's like, can be the face of this. It was like, oh, these are people who see me. I feel seen. I have a place, I have a community. And that kind of just rerouted her and redirected her. It's like, yes, for a lot of people, all they need is community. All people need is a solution to their loneliness or a solution to feeling othered, which is why third spaces are so important for our community, which is why you know, during the Black is Beautiful era, we were creating spaces to make sure that black girls and black people saw themselves as beautiful because it's like, if you don't see it, then how can you know what's possible? And that was to me exactly, especially 15, 14, 15, they're the most impressionable. Like judging somebody for what they did when they were 14 and 15 is crazy. There things I did when I was 21. Marquise Davon: Yeah. That's needed for young people. Yeah. Come on. Truly. RAY LOVE JR.: 25th, I'd be like, Lord, please don't let people judge me for this, I am in a different space. Growth, like allow me grace to grow. Marquise Davon: circus yes like that's No, I think that is so important. I think it's actually funny because based off some of the reactions to me, it's kind of concerning if I'm gonna be honest, if I'm thinking around like the reactions to teenage Emma's character and also adult Emma's character is because there's almost a recognition that people don't want people to change. Because if I can condemn you for the worst thing, then I can get you before other people get me. And that's something I thought was particularly interesting is like, It made me wonder, was like, people really don't care about kids because working in classrooms, working in schools, I see kids who are isolated. So I make it a part of my practice to bring them in community in different ways. But I also show them the low key, like low levels of shame. so like my students, one thing about me, two things to be certain, I'm clumsy. ⁓ My special awareness be off. I should probably go get that checked. But I bumped into things all the time. But my students are like, Mr. Richards, why are you always so clumsy? Like Mr. Marquis, why you do that? But for me, I realized like I have small instances of shame and embarrassment. Embarrassment is a very manageable form of shame, right? Well, it should be. And so for me, I'm just like, ⁓ if I just like walk through my little moments of embarrassment, it actually allows other kids to know like, you don't have to be this picture perfect person all the time. And so that's something I thought around. as it relates to us as adults looking at children and just being like, oh no, they're the worst person in world. This is what happens when we go, what's wrong with you versus what happened to you. And that's the entire crux of the story is like, y'all hoes not trauma informed. Like, what are we talking about? And that to me is interesting. like how, anyways, I talked a lot, that's, I'm not. Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. I mean, but that's real. That's real. I wonder, that's one of the things that like, really, why I really wish that the Emma character was a bit more filled out is because that point of grace and being judged for that one thing, I think if you were to try to look at the things that were left unsaid in this, what they're trying to show us is that the reason why Emma is able to be as graceful with people, with Charlie, and we see her allowing him to have a second chance at the first impression is because she is someone who has once before known what it was like to not be given that grace. And I'm like more curious about, yes, and I'm more curious about like how she got to that place in adulthood. There's such a big gap there where I was like, I'm really more curious about this character's. Marquise Davon: She was discarded. RAY LOVE JR.: psychology and like where they are as an adult. But we got to see a lot of these interstitials play out ⁓ in what I believe was a very Degrassi coded, youth. Yes. So this was like Degrassi. This is Louisiana. This was like we in Canada. Right. You know, in Degrassi there was a school shooting. Jimmy got, you know, there was. Marquise Davon: Get into it, get into it. I said. That's a J? Yes, Jimmy. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, it was a whole thing. But yeah, I'm definitely there with you on that. And I really would have liked to see more of the Emma adult character play out as opposed to being so restrained in her reactions to things that were happening around her and in reaction to. Marquise Davon: No, I'm with you on that. And then I think like the last part that I really want to get into is honestly the wedding in itself, like the mess, the actual drama of it all. And really just in this, love so many things that, so many elements that happened in this scene because I think we get to see a lot more of the psychology of Charlie's character. But I love like the parallel action that's happening of, ⁓ if we find out about, RAY LOVE JR.: The mess. Yes. Yes. Marquise Davon: Is she talking, is Rachel talking about me? So Zendaya is overhearing in a bathroom and this is where they start to play up the anxiety a lot more. ⁓ what are they talking around? And also playing into like, she's hearing impaired in one of her ears. So she, even like the things that she hears, is she also reliable in what she is actually hearing in this moment in time? To then see the domino effect happen where Misha, she wants to have a separate conversation with Misha and Misha's just like, it's not, it's not a... RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Marquise Davon: I said, girl, stand up, like use your words. RAY LOVE JR.: And this is, when I say this movie is a horror, we're in, at the wedding, we're in the house of horror. Like we're seeing how the social perception is being used as a plot device that has driven the protagonist mad because now he's in this one space with everything that he's most fearful of coming to light. He's been exposed for kissing Misha. He's being exposed for telling somebody else outside of who already knew about Emma's worst thing about the thing or. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: It's just everything leaked out until we ultimately got the thunderclap of, you know, what took place with the head, headbutt. I was like, and then a headbutt? I was like, this is really the widest thing y'all could have done. I'm not gonna be headbutting nobody. Right. Marquise Davon: You like headbutt and then they said, my one boy pointed out, he goes, how you headbutt him out of his shoes for the wedding? RAY LOVE JR.: Hello? Like, what are we doing? Like Blake really had some strength in him and yeah, but also we should note that this whole film takes place in Boston, which when I think Boston, I think this is definitely a white ass city. Like, yeah. Yeah. So I was just like, the fact that we're putting this black face in a white space and not contending with her blackness in any way, I was like, Marquise Davon: It's white. Through and through. I said... RAY LOVE JR.: For a point there, I was like, is she supposed to be passing for a white woman? Marquise Davon: I thought it was giving JLo an enough, like, you were a TV Italian girl. But the introduction of the- RAY LOVE JR.: My God today. But we ultimately with the flashbacks, yeah, it ⁓ she's a black girl. And then the dad and ⁓ my God, that jump scare during the dad's speech, my God, took me out. That was the moment that I laughed so much and so long that I felt embarrassed for laughing so much because I was the only person who was so loudly continuing to laugh. Marquise Davon: Okay. Wait. Yo, can we talk about it though? It took me out. you RAY LOVE JR.: And I was mostly laughing at the fact that the white girl got so spooked by this sound, cause she was really scared. She was like, ooh, it's too many, too many niggas in here. They might have a gun and it might be coming. It was, the shit was hilarious to me in that moment. ⁓ my God. Marquise Davon: You Can I tell you the other part that gave me so much levity is when I said there had to be a black writer particularly in this scene. Cause when Rachel stood up to give her fuck ass speech and the dad said, did you just interrupt? ⁓ when he. RAY LOVE JR.: not just the dad, you'll see in the background, think like behind Emma, there's like an older black woman back there and an older black man. And they also have like reactions to like, what is she talking about? Like what's happening? Yeah, I've seen the movie three times. I've been able to look in different corners, but it's hilarious. And then on top of that, through all of this madness, the photographer is still shooting. Marquise Davon: You know? You Please, please, please, please. Let's talk about, yes, cause the photographer, yes, we didn't even talk around that scene. One thing I know to be true, two things I know to be certain, that photographer stole the show from me. She was just like, are y'all okay? Yo, she is a beast, like through and through. But I think that's even funnier though too is like. RAY LOVE JR.: Ha same. Zoey Winters played that character. yeah. Yes. Marquise Davon: As a photographer, you were supposed to get the perception of love. This is what it should look like. She was like, something's off here, you know? RAY LOVE JR.: Sis turned into a documentary photographer in that moment and said, you know what, if we're capturing the moment, this is the moment. Cheers to the girls weekend. She said, I am not about to be told that I'm not doing my job up in this piece. Like y'all hired me to be a photographer and document the moment and I am shooting. Shoot or shoot. Marquise Davon: Okay, through and Ha and I'm gonna do it. And she did, and she did. ⁓ my gosh, that really took me out because that really hammered though the entire theme of just like what happens if your worst shame is put on public display and for your worst shame to be documented in photos, that to me is such a a nutshell and such like a full circle moment on like. RAY LOVE JR.: You Yeah. Marquise Davon: ⁓ we all have dealt with this moment internally of like, ⁓ I'm. RAY LOVE JR.: You know whose analysis I'm really curious about on this film? I would love to hear what a psychologist or a therapist has to say about the inner child narrative that is also present here, because we're learning that essentially, and we see this visualized, Charlie can't get past Emma's inner child through this worst thing that she shared. And we see the child on dates with her because all he sees is Marquise Davon: Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: the inner child version of her in those moments. And I'm really curious on how that lands on folks in the mental health space, because I think there's something there. Because they say that, you know, successful marriages or relationships are people who know how to cater to or ⁓ speak to the inner child of someone. So there's something there that I'm curious about. Marquise Davon: Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, I actually love that too, because that, I'm not gonna lie, that's a montage I definitely laughed at. I said, it's a little creepy. RAY LOVE JR.: Like, Like, I, I go, I I go, go, I go, I go, I I go, I I go, go, I Marquise Davon: I said it. I said, y'all don't get this. Y'all don't see what they doing here. RAY LOVE JR.: Yes! This is sick! Marquise Davon: When they did the little prom pose, I said, please. I said, you are really spiraling right now. Like you don't know what to do with this. RAY LOVE JR.: Yes. ⁓ my God. Another moment that I laughs like I open mouth cackled at was that quick flashback of her sitting in front of computer talking about shout out to Sally you're gonna be the fucking first to die or something like that I said, ⁓ my god, these people are sick. This is hilarious. I left the movie theater literally yelling shout out to Sally. Man. Marquise Davon: You're trying to impress me. What was that? ⁓ my God! That was such a good- I'm sorry, that really is a great time! RAY LOVE JR.: Such a good time. God, But also to the flashbacks, you know, something else that connected to me, I was like, is this a white cousin to the best man movie? Because what we're witnessing here is the groom in this story learning something about the woman he's about to marry through his friend group. and him unraveling from there. And so we know in The Best Man how that played out, like at that crazy scene at the altar where he's having those flashbacks or imagining, he's imagining what the romantic scene was based on reading Harper's book. And we're seeing those flashbacks in that moment in a similar way that we're seeing these like surrealist flashbacks of things that never happened happening with these characters too. And I was like, if you view it through that lens, like The Best Man is... Marquise Davon: wild thing. Mm-hmm. Right. RAY LOVE JR.: a one-to-one comp of the drama in a very interesting way. Marquise Davon: I actually love that. Wow, not their cousins, the white cousin. RAY LOVE JR.: Yes. Yes. I watch a lot of movies, At Film Good, we screened The Best Man, so The Best Man is still top of mind for me. It was one of our quarter century series features. And it's, yeah, it's there. Marquise Davon: ⁓ you really ate with that. ⁓ my gosh. And I... Yeah. That is fire. No, I appreciate you so much for that. Cause I said, ⁓ I'm going into the second watch going to be even more on my stuff. I said, let me get on my zoom right now. said, Ray, when I text you, don't be surprised. ⁓ Yeah, that thank you for that because I'm really sitting here and I'm just like, ⁓ something else that I think is, I love how you kind of placed it as in the wedding scene. We have officially entered the house of horror. RAY LOVE JR.: Yes. ⁓ Marquise Davon: ⁓ and something that it really did make me think about as you were talking is the fear that comes along with finality. Like people often think marriage is like this very finite thing. And so if I'm committing to this thing, I am I making the right decision? This is the risk of romance. Should I give myself to this person? And so I would imagine like this also felt like the inner worst fears of meeting somebody and learning that you did not know a very core detail about this person. Right? And so I think like that to me is also a very interesting tension that exists is just like, do you truly love me if you can't tell me the worst thing that you've done? If this is how you lost your hearing in one ear, why'd you tell me it was as a kid versus that? Like I could have talked around that a little bit more, but I could have also found some empathy for that kind of situation as well. And so that's also something. that I'm thinking around is like in this house of horror, is it also the very clear fear of am I committing to the right person in life? And I think that's also something we get scared of. RAY LOVE JR.: The fact that their relationship essentially had a foundation of lies, like her lying about how she was deaf and him lying that he read the fucking book that she was reading the very first time he introduced himself to her, like the lies, the lies, the lies. Yes. Exactly. But there's so much there where it's just like this film and this story, I think they... Marquise Davon: The book. The lies. The lie. I appreciate you. RAY LOVE JR.: We have to say that the writer and director of this is a white Norwegian man. And so understanding like his perspective of American culture is interesting to see on display here. ⁓ And that's what we got. got this white man's story with the black lead. And I'm like, ⁓ maybe you needed a consultant, a culture consultant. Marquise Davon: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What? Well, I think, just a little bit, but I think it's also interesting, because something I've been kind of teetering with is Zendaya and taking it out of the movie, but thinking around Zendaya's choice of characters that she has embraced and like thinking around how each of, at least I would say the two white men that she has worked with, Sam Levinson and also the, what is this writer's name? Don't get me lying. I can Google that. but both of them also have scandal ⁓ attached to their name. And so this writer had actually talked around how he essentially was grooming. ⁓ he had a teenage girlfriend. And so for this story to be told through that lens with Zendaya, it's very similar to me where Sam Levinson is talking through his struggle with addiction and how he is utilizing Zendaya essentially as a muse to tell that story. And so to me, I think it's also interesting to watch. white men and an argument can also be made for one battle after another as well in terms of like the use of those. I'ma chalk it because that's same. I said I'm not even going to engage because the ways in which I have thoughts no ⁓ RAY LOVE JR.: I'm so glad we out of this season. Yes, and this director of the drama, name is Christopher Borley. Marquise Davon: There we go, so thank you. And so thinking around like these men who are kind of exercising their complicated thoughts around their own flaws and utilizing Zendaya or black women as a way to kind of work through some of that because we often see ⁓ black women having to kind of be this moral purity. We don't allow them to be flawed. And I think that eggs itself on into how we interpret this film because there are some folks who are like, look. Let me focus on this part and then get to the part on how people are internalizing Zendaya's character, whether she was a black woman or not in the film, ⁓ which I think I'm just like, you saw the dad shut up. But I think it's interesting to watch them kind of exercise this and we see flawed black women through a white man's lens. And so is this something where you are trying to humanize yourself through utilizing folks that we expect to be the moral backbone of America and the world, which are tend to be black women? And so that's why we're also quickly to condemn them, which then to my brain, then connected to Harper Stern's character and industry where we're like, ⁓ we like a villainous black woman when she's also in this space, but people also refer to her as a psychopath. And so when you both have these recognitions, and if we watched the most recent season, we're seeing human become, Harper become humanized by the end of the film. And throughout her flashbacks, we also see Emma's character be humanized, but we still can RAY LOVE JR.: Hmm. Marquise Davon: crowd down on them. And so I was like, maybe I have another working thesis on like black women and how we see them because we use psychopathy as a way to ⁓ prescribe that to them versus actually seeing it. And so I think that's like a very interesting conversation on mental wellness and how much grace we give black women and black girls versus how we see that because the study will also let you know that black girls are the most neglected group within ⁓ which, ⁓ wow, you know what? Yeah, ate that. Let me connect that thought. Because Black girls are ⁓ more disciplined within the school system. So they are experiencing higher expulsion rates, disciplinary rates. They see them as bad, have attitudes. Black girls who tend to advocate for themselves or do something wrong will experience a much more harsh sentence, which I think plays out when we're at the table and we see a white woman, a black man, a white man, a black girl, black woman. also experience all of these things at one time. And so we're actually seeing a manifestation of what happens in schools happen in real time. And then when we think around it at large, black women are not able to be flawed or have mental health concerns without making it seem like you are the worst of the earth. ⁓ wow. RAY LOVE JR.: You ain't that, this is why critical thinking is important. This is why. Marquise Davon: I love my liberal arts degree, okay? RAY LOVE JR.: Hmm. Yeah, that's that's that's a lot to chew on and I think Marquise Davon: Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: Ooh, I think that when we get movies like this, I really want or encourage people to understand all of these different dynamics at play for what we're seeing on screen. Because like, there were some moments in the movie where I was like, what is this director trying to put in the subtext of things? Because when they're in the classroom doing a flashback scene, I noticed there's a... something written on the board, there's a quote. What was the quote? Oh man, it's like Brevity, I think it's like a, is it a Shakespeare quote or something? Brevity is the soul of wit, I think is what it said. And I'm like, was this the filmmaker trying to put something in there to show us that, you know, he's keeping it brief and not expounding on things because of him trying to be witty or something? I don't know. But like I look at all of those small cues and try to like interpret those as I'm watching things because. Marquise Davon: Interesting. Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: Every image we see is intentional. Marquise Davon: Yes, and that's what I was also paying attention to. Like for me, that's why I like even down to like what colors they're wearing. And oftentimes when we see opposing colors, this means ⁓ we see two sides, like there's something at odds with one another. If we see a contrast of warm tones versus cool tones, people who wear black and white, or we see a use of mirrors a lot, that means you are split between two personalities or you are not who you say you are. And so that's why I was like very fascinated by the choice of like what characters were wearing, what colors, but then also what were characters drinking as well. And that's why I'm trying to like remember were they drinking red wine or white wine when they were at the table. And that's what I was trying to figure out. Cause I said that indication might have been from the start when they were trying to communicate. RAY LOVE JR.: they were drinking neither. The wine they were drinking, and the reason why I know this is because they specifically asked for another bottle of it, is called skin contact wine, which is neither really red or white wine, if I'm not mistaken. Skin contact wine. ⁓ Marquise Davon: Which actually- which then I think even kind of plays into it, because I'm just like the white wine can represent the purity, the red wine can be symbolized of blood and violence, and so that, ooh, wait, ooh, I'm gonna do my Googles, because there's something there. But, no, I appreciate that, because now I'm just like, girl, what is this? RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. That was something Washington was like, what the hell is skin contact wine? I was like, what is this? But I think I like Googled it or something. It's kind of, think like orange wine or something, which is like, are y'all trying to talk about the interracialness of this with red and white mixing and making this thing that's orange? Like child, there's a lot that you can unpack with that. Marquise Davon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that also just makes me think around it, because it was the skin contact wine, Zendaya's, I mean, Emma's jacket she wore by the end of the film was orange. I said, what's orange mean? What's orange mean here? ⁓ But as we get to the end of the film, I'm interested to know a little bit more around how you feel about Zendaya deciding to, and I know you kind of talked a little bit around it, just like maybe this is part of her humanities. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, it was. Marquise Davon: her humanity as she understands what it means to be disposable, what it means to go through this level of shame and develop empathy. But I'm actually curious, like, did you agree with Emma's decision to come back and reset essentially ⁓ with Charlie? RAY LOVE JR.: Based on how we've come to understand this character, one of the things that they kept repeating in the movie and making apparent is that one of her character traits is that she's a very empathetic person. Remember the photographer said, double empathy, hollered, hollered, hollered. And it was also a line in Charlie's initial Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. RAY LOVE JR.: vows that he was typing out throughout the film when he was talking to, yeah, that he erased. And so I think her coming around to being forgiven again to this white man was just another mark of this empathetic person. They've conditioned us to believe that Emma is. And so it's like, it wouldn't be characteristic of her not to in this situation, considering she constantly lets him have another chance at making that first impression. ⁓ Marquise Davon: that he erased. Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: So I just, wonder what is it about that though? Like, is it desperation? Do you not feel like you're worthy of someone else who sees you? Like I just, it definitely left me with some questions of the psychology behind where Emma was as an adult, which again, why I wanted more of Emma as an adult. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I very much so agree with that because I wondered if I would have taken it back. I think it makes sense ⁓ for what we've gotten with Emma as it relates to Let's Start Over because I think for him to have to atone for, or not even atone, but have to suffer the consequence of his own actions, I think she made that a parallel to when she had to do deal with her own actions. And so for me, it took me back to the scene where the white boy saw her and now she sees him. And I think that's where she finds a marker of, you can now understand and rationalize how I made a decision and be able to do this thing. And so it's annoying because it required violence in order for you to have a recognition of how you were judging other people. This is down to the DJ. This is down to Emma. This is down to Misha's character, right? like how they were all trying to like keep the sanctity of who they were and making sure the worst parts of their shame did not get out. And so I think part of her decision, I think as just a human to human, I understand. Now, I think as a black person to a white person and a woman who said, ⁓ you were so quick to discard me, you hoe, like, you gotta go. I'm so sorry. Like that's insane. Like where's your worth? Who taught you to love? Stand up. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Yeah, but I also want to go back to you acknowledging or pointing out that the white boy saw her in her youth, which is, that was a point, but the thing that most registered or resonated with me was when the black boy saw her in the group and put her in position as the face of the movement. That was something that was subtle, but I also peeped. I was like, yep, okay, I see it. So yeah. Marquise Davon: Power. Yeah, no, I love that. Thank you for naming that point too, because I think that there are a couple of things where I was like, it's funny seeing the outside perspective where they were just like, ⁓ I feel like this was more like a colorblind thing. This is white people shit, blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, no, I think there were actual very specific things. And I wouldn't be surprised if that, because Zendaya historically has made sure like black people were represented within the film that she's in, that she was just like, no. a black person wouldn't do that necessarily or hey, let's make some no nods here that show that there are other black people. So seeing the black people, thinking around the black people in the background, thinking about her dad's reaction, thinking around the jump scare, thinking around that black boy, there are nuances in there that I know for us as a people, we be like girls, cause same, right? That I think. remind us that this is still a Black woman. And so I think when we kind of discount her race, when we see more layers of it appear, I think overall, as I'm thinking around like the overall part of the film as it relates to like a race lens to it, is I can appreciate how they allow us to kind of subscribe our own thoughts to it as well. And so I think that's also part of it, of like leaving it or whatever that Shakespeare quote was. kind of allowing us to kind of get into it because I think that's what's driving conversation. I think that's what drives perspective. And it's something I've always wrestled with as a dramaturg is like, how much do I actually give and spoon feed to the audience? Which I think is the problem of cinema and TV shows right now is like, I don't need to spoon feed this thing. Actually, how do you wrestle with this within yourself? And so I would say in my final thoughts as I took it away, it actually made me, I wrote a Substack article around it and it had made me think around. my own relationship to my father and thinking around like, ⁓ he committed a very violent act and he experienced 24 years in prison around it. But when people would ask me about it, I was just like, you know, like the system is messed up, blah, blah, blah, because I did not want them to connect me to being like, well, if he's capable of violence, then you're capable of violence as well. And I know everybody's capable of it, but I know that there was a part of the shame of just like something I had nothing to do with, right? RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Marquise Davon: But even in that, it made me think around how do I engage in shame and forgiveness and even in the world where it's super complicated. I said at the end of the day, that's still my father. And I still wanted something around that and like a relationship that was there no matter what it looks like today. But I know like the inner child of Marquise was just like, I can make excuses because the system screwed him over. They did not talk around his mental health disorder. They didn't talk around his struggle with addiction. They didn't talk about any of this stuff. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Marquise Davon: And so it made me think around his own resilience to his shame, how even like the thing that he said when he first got out of prison was just like, I'm actually glad you're nothing like me. And for me, I was just like, no, I thought I wanted to be somebody that was like, do I got something from you type situation? And so it took me back to like those conversations I had with him and how he carries shame and how I've also inherited some of his shame by... RAY LOVE JR.: Hmm. Marquise Davon: how I interacted with him or talked around him or the idea of him. And so this film for me, as I think around my own takeaway is like, what happens when you understand what it meant to be discarded or what it meant to like be shamed on publicly and how do you kind of wrestle back from that and where do you find your community? And I was like, that for me made me think around him. It made me think around my own complicated nature on. RAY LOVE JR.: Hmm. Marquise Davon: redemption, who's worthy of it, and knowing that proximity makes people different. And so that's where my frustration with Charlie's character overall came with Emma is like, you spent every day with this person for years. You went out of your way to learn about this person. You know who they are to this day. Not the idea of who they were, but who they are today. And for you to still question that, that's the point where for me, I found frustration within this character, because I was like, Yeah, this one thing, it can feel big and I don't want to minimize what the act or thought of act was, but it made me wonder like even you are fickle as it relates to her own shame and the person who actually felt the most amount of remorse in this entire piece was Emma's character. And so those are some of the things that like, as I think around the overall thing that I know I personally took away from it and how I kind of related it back to my own life, it made me think around like, oh, what is my... relationship to shame, forgiveness, redemption, and how that's still complicated in the nature based off of proximity of the relationship to my father, but also myself. yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, I just saw them not digging deeper into that character. It's a missed opportunity. I think it was definitely a chance for them to be more expansive in character building. But speaking to the point of opportunity, I did want to bring up something. There was no opportunity, no chance to make this more organic in conversation, but I want to mention this. I came across a LA Times article titled, She Made One Song, One Album in 1974, Now Her Song is Playing in a New 824 Movie. Marquise Davon: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Period. RAY LOVE JR.: And it's a Shira Small song that's playing in the background of the opening credit sequence in the drama that I was like, this is a black woman and she's a black woman with locks. And I was just like, this is such a beautiful wrinkle and kind of like more of this film. ⁓ And you know, the soundtrack did play a big part, I think in my viewing experience. So then putting on Alicia Keys, doing that photography session, I was like, the choices. Marquise Davon: Yeah! And it did. Baby, ba- The choices, indeed. ⁓ man, thank you for that last nugget. Ray, this has been such a joy of a conversation. I appreciate you. I appreciate your insight. ⁓ I was able to learn something new in this conversation, but also if this is any indication of what people can get on Seated, podcast, please make sure that you are going to like listen and view this show. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah. Yeah. Marquise Davon: support this show. I really, really do appreciate folks who are able to really connect pop culture to your personal life and how this can extend to a further politic. think it's one of the most genius ways of teaching people, because it's not like so preachy that it's like, no, well, what's your perspective, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I love, love, love what you're doing. I told you I am a fan of you. I am excited to just engage in more conversation with you. And so thank you for this. ⁓ You got pardon words and also let the people know where they can find you and how to support you. RAY LOVE JR.: Yeah, thank you again just for having me and creating the space for people to unpack complicated thoughts, especially coming from like the spaces we operate in. They're often not as friendly to opinions. ⁓ And that's where people can find me is sharing my opinions about movies and my experience as a black person viewing these stories over at Seated Show. It's ⁓ easiest way to find us is seatedshow.com. That's S-E-A-T-E-D-S-H-O-W.com. Marquise Davon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. RAY LOVE JR.: You can find all of our episodes there. We're on Instagram, we're on threads at Seated Show, and I'm just Ray Love Jr. And we hope to see you at the movie soon. You have to come and join us for a conversation or two. I love how you really think critically about a movie. Like these are two hours we take out of our day for enjoyment or just to shift perspective on a topic and learn something new about how people think about us and themselves. That's the joy of movies. It's a great space to create conversations. And the fact that you're willing to engage in these conversations, I love it. Like this is my type of time. And so I'm happy to be here and join the conversation. Marquise Davon: Come on. Look, you officially a friend of the show. You are more than welcome to come back. We got reoccurring people, cast members all the time. So whenever you ready, if there's another film, we just want to sit down and break down together. I don't mind. I don't mind. But thank you again. Thank you for your time. Like I said, that's the one thing we don't get back. So the fact that you chose to spend it here, that really just means a lot to me. It's been great to get to know you through this space. RAY LOVE JR.: Yes. if. Marquise Davon: But I'm so excited for people, even my audience to get to know who you are, because you're fucking dope. what? Y'all, that is another episode of Keeping It A Beam. Please do not be a hater. Hit that like and subscribe button and give me a five star rating and review. Let me know what you enjoyed. Engage in the comments when you see the clips go out. That's the best way to support, like I already told you. Make sure to also support Ray Love Jr. as well. Yes. Peace out. Thank y'all. RAY LOVE JR.: Thank you. Howler.