speaker-0: If artificial intelligence can create a brand new 90s rock anthem in 10 seconds, what does that say about the future of music? Will the AI revolution lead to the mediocrity of culture? Will it cause a ripple effect that cancels out independent artists? Or will it be a useful tool for musicians to create their own music faster? What if the world decided we were all better off without AI creating art and just stop consuming and creating it? Those are some of the questions and topics I'm going to dig into today with my guest, AJ Fucillo from a band called Wyatt and the Ashes, has been a vocal opponent of the use of AI for creating art pretty much since it started happening. We'll talk about three major threats AI poses to music, and specifically rock music, the line between tools and replacement, and some practical ways fans and artists can fight back against the impending terror of an artificial world. We will also be discussing the music of Wyatt and the Ashes and how the journey to create a song is what makes us humans different from the machines. Welcome to the Powered by Rock podcast where real rock fans come to discuss and hear stories straight from the artists who actually make the music. Welcome back to the show, AJ. It has been a long, time. It's actually I just checked. was 2023. I think the last time we actually did a podcast together. So it's been a while, but thanks for joining the show and thanks for coming back.

speaker-1: Thanks for having me, man. So it's pleasure. good to see you, bud. Yeah. Yeah. I just ran into you a couple of weeks ago at the no effects exhibit and we were talking about the whole AI thing and it's so funny because just in those couple of weeks, there's been so many advancements and changes and that's how wild this whole thing is.

speaker-0: Yeah, I know. And it's like the more deep fake and more realistic things look and sound. It's just more people believe what they're seeing and it's just crazy. yeah, I think before we dig into today's topic of AI killing rock music, I want to first obviously interview. Obviously they can go back and watch the 2023 episode. I'll link that in the link as well so we can get some of the music and some more information about you. But just to kind of get a glimpse of your expertise in your background. You know, if I'm talking about you, I'm thinking, know, AJ is a hardworking independent rock musician. That's one of the best musicians in Las Vegas. Plays his heart out on stages. That's the one thing I think if you ever watch White in the Ashes or just you play in general, you're, you know, I remember I put together a show with you just, you know, solo guitar, you know, with a couple other solo artists. And that was, you know, phenomenal. You know, you can, you can definitely tell you have a passion. The music's personal. You know, the music cuts a bit deeper because it is something that comes from you. And it takes time to create. that's something that you don't get from AI. And we'll talk about that, obviously. And you've been in other rock bands for years. And you've been doing Wyatt and the Ashes for a few years now, played shows of all sorts. Not only do you create music as art, but you also create art, pen, pencil, painting, that kind of stuff. And that's incredibly inspiring as well. So can you talk about your personal journey in both art forms, like the personal journey you have, but then also how did the experience you have in life ⁓ matter to those things?

speaker-1: Yeah, man. ⁓ first of all, thanks for all those amazing compliments, man. I, I actually find more peace lately in the fact that I am nobody in the sense of, you know, popularity and like what I do, but I think that keeps me focused on the actual art form and not caring so much about what other people think about it. You know, art and music in general, I think is such a selfish thing. It is a very narcissistic thing, but in, in, in order to express oneself, you have to be able to dive in and ⁓ find those kind of selfish places to then show other people. And ⁓ as far as personal experience, I've been playing and I've been drawing probably longer than I've been making music. ⁓ it's just art in general is just something that naturally pours out of me. actually have a hard time understanding people who think music is just sound or just noise in the background, but that is a reality that, that, you know, most average consumers, it's just, oh yeah, that looks nice. Or that sounds pleasant enough to drive to or whatever it may be. But for some people, you know, this stuff is just the reason for being, you know, I think you're either a creator or a consumer. And I think if you're creating, you're consuming less. And I think if you're consuming, you're not creating. I think there's a healthy balance, in the shortcut of the world, certain things go out the window.

speaker-0: When I first moved to Las Vegas, a lot of people that met, their favorite phrase when I talked about a song, was like, why do you like that song? They're like, ⁓ I just like the beat. I'm like. You like the beat of the song, the kick drum of the song. That's the beat. The beat is the kick drum. Like you're telling me that's what you like about the song. Like anybody can just go bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. Like that's every song. Like every dance hit has that basic beat. And they would be like, I don't even know what they're talking about. I have no idea what the song is about, but I just like the beat. I'm like, wow, that is crazy to me that that's something that people could actually say out loud and realize that they're like consuming stuff just because it's a singular beat, which is crazy.

speaker-1: And yeah, and you know, and that's okay too. you know, I know we're not really getting to the AI stuff yet, but it's hard to even talk about myself or creating myself without it kind of coming back to where we're at lately. And I think that's why there's a need for these discussions and why these discussions are so interesting because we're already so far past the red that, that it's like, you know, where do we go now kind of thing. So it's, ⁓ but you know, to get you know, not off topic here with what you were saying or asking me about the personal journey. It's just been fun, man. It's been a lot of fun. I've done a lot of stuff. You know, I've been writing music my whole life and drawing my whole life and I've been working my whole life on top of that too, you know. So I think there's a lot of, I think I'm blessed actually that I didn't have the easy way in when I was younger or... you know, make it when I was younger and have that fill my head and have that kind of corrupt what I'm doing. Like I've had to do everything I'm doing based on passion and based on the want and the desire and the burning desire to do these things. There's no other reason. There's no other motivation. You know, no one's throwing me a sack of money and throwing my face on a billboard. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's, you gotta do this stuff cause you love it, man. You have to. And, ⁓ it's amazing how many people just say, I'm in a band and I expect this and let me play this show and you should, you know, it's just like, wow, you know, like get out there and you know, play a little, you know.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, and you and I were even talking about, you know, ⁓ the creative process that goes into like your first album versus like the next few albums or the next time you create a song. And you mentioned like the first album is basically your greatest hits of the time, right? Cause you can have, you can draw down from, say you have 30 songs that you've ever written for your first album, you can produce and record the best 10, 12 songs, right? Put that on the album. Those are your greatest hits. But then going forward, you then have to rewrite from scratch, like new stuff or take from the old stuff that didn't make the first album or a blend of the both. And it's kind of like the hard part is like doing it again and being better and better and better. And some people can do it. Some people can't, some bands just kind recycle it but whatever but you know this is the kind of stuff that like when you talk about creative process and passion things take time to write really good things like if you're in that machine of like you got to write a new album every two years well it's formulaic it's not necessarily passion it's just I got to do this because it's maybe making money or something

speaker-1: Yeah, I you never know what resonates with people, you know, sometimes simple and just farting something out there, you know, is a hit, you know, like, I'll be honest with you, I think sometimes I invest too much into a song where it becomes too personal and too selfish, where it might not resonate with a lot of people. But you know, that's a personal choice I make. And I don't really care, because you could fill a room with people who don't get it. But I can tell the one dude in the corner who's like, I saw what you did there that reminded me of this or that. And you know, back to the whole greatest thing, greatest hits thing that you're saying, I think that's the goal. I think when you're a band starting out, you really want to make a name for yourself and you're doing it for the right reasons, right? Which is about the music. you know, your goal should be to like pour out like your best, greatest hits album, your dookie, your, your, ⁓ you know what I mean? Like that, those types of albums, you know, but you gotta be a fan of that kind of stuff to really understand, you know, cause we all are just copies of a copy, right? Like when it comes to AI, You know, you're just, AI is just taking all this information and compiling it to a random thing that, you know, might sound and might feel like this pop country song. And then, you know, here it is. But ever since I could remember my guy, like, I still remember all my favorite songs as a kid. I still remember every song that like hit me emotionally. And your brain kind of holds onto these songs and saves these songs like an agenda file kind of like in Bruce Almighty. Remember when that big file cabinet comes out and he's like, It's like you save every song, you dissect that song and in your mind you go, what makes this good? Where's the hook? What? Why do I feel different when this part of the song comes around? What makes it good? And if you listen to everything and you listen to enough throughout your entire life, uh, or you just cram everything you can in the short amount of time that you have, you have this like infinite pile of resources to pick from when you're creating songs. But it's personal, it's human, it's self. It's not algorithmic. It's not artificial. You're pulling these little details from songs that meant something to you that made you feel this way, that made you feel that emotion. go, how do I then deliver that emotion? And that should be the goal. think that should be the goal for any musician is the music. But in today's age, I think we really need to start separating who's a content creator, who's an entertainer, who wants fame online versus who's creating music. Right. And especially in the rock genre, I think there needs to be more mystery in music. I don't think I want to see my favorite artist will lie on a Saturday morning and tell me what he's eating for breakfast. You know, I want to see him on a poster on my wall with like flames ejected from, you know, a stage or something, you know, like that's the kind of mystery music we need to get back to. Here's the record. Here's the tangible thing I spent a year and a half creating. what you want with it. I'm going to go disappear or go on tour for a year and tour that record. That's the only content you're going to get from me. You know, like even interviews and stuff like, you and I are friends, you and I are buds and I love this topic. So I want to talk about it. But like, you know, I don't like getting on with someone who's never listened to my music and, know, ask me questions about, know, what I think about this or that. Like, no one cares. don't.

speaker-0: Yeah. We talked about we're old enough to where when we heard bands on the radio or we heard bands on a compilation album or something, we had no idea what they look like. Never saw them ever until maybe we saw them live at a Warped tour or in concert or they put out a music video years later after we liked them. ⁓ my God, that's what they look like. I swear, there's so many bands. I had no idea. Like Lag Wagon was one of them. I listened to Lag Wagon for years and then I just I haven't seen some of the pictures of the band, but I couldn't really make out their faces and stuff. when you see them live you're like, ⁓ that's what they look like? had no idea what they look like.

speaker-1: I love the mystery. Like I love seeing the lead singer is almost a cartoon character and not a human being. You know what I mean? Like I don't even consider myself a singer. I'm really into character voice acting. Like, you know, there's four or five voices I'm using just in Wyatt and the ashes. You know what I mean? Like, you know, but like it's, that's the sad part is like, I don't feel like keeping up with the content creation. Like I don't want to dump all, all this stuff out. Like I want you to see clips of a good live show. So, you know what you're getting from there. I want to share my artwork and you know, everything else just, I feel like is a waste of time. But, ⁓ you know, the whole AI thing where I think it's going to go and it could go in a really positive way where it just blows up in the faces of corporate executives. And, you know, we all turn our backs to it, you know, and everything, you know, gets cool again over time, but I'm prepared for just writing songs for the campfire, my guy. And I think. that's where everyone's focus needs to be. Who's going to survive around the campfire? You know, not.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Not your fault. Take us over and destroy our civilization and we got left is like, can't fight.

speaker-1: Yeah, like cool. You got a hundred thousand followers because you had one viral video of you on stage eating a cookie or Some dumb shit like I don't know, you know what I mean? But like can you pull out a guitar and entertain someone around the campfire? Can you earn your meal around that fire? You know, and and I think if that's the focus we're gonna have a lot better musicians You know what? I mean because bands come out and advertise they're being bands, but they want to be all these other things too So, you know, they'll use AI And I think AI is more of a threat in the writing process than it is full blown artificial song, shit it out. There it is. I think it's, it's the laziness of writers and the, uh, I want it now and I deserve this and I need to be heard. It's that mentality that's going to use AI and shit out.

speaker-0: Yeah, I don't disagree. So let's kind of like format this a bit to where we can structurally talk about AI, take it down, break it down, and look at it, right? Because there are things that AI can do. There are things that AI can't do. AI can generate audio in the style of this musician, that folk, whatever, that genre, right? It can do that. It can clone voices, which is creepy and crazy. It can mimic guitar tones and drum patterns. And it can mass produce content at scale. The things it can't do, can't tour, can't bleed, can't bomb on stage, can't build a scene, it can't earn trust the hard way, it can't replace the culture that makes rock music specifically matter. there's each genre has its like tribe, its following, its kind of hardcore fans and stuff like that. Rock music has kind of had that for like decades. I mean, it was truly probably the first massively popular art form in terms of music, because of like the Beatles. you know, like all these pioneer bands and all that stuff. And rock music isn't just like a collection of notes and chords. It's engagement, relationships, life experiences pursued and even including the times that you listen to that music with other people, right? Like in a concert or in a car or whatever, you can remember things about that. I can't reproduce that. They can't even imagine that. Like it can't summon that and say, here's how I make music. Right. So as an independent rock musician yourself, kind of where do you see the difference coming when you hear artificially generated songs versus when you hear a song that you can like was actually crafted through some hard life experience. What do you see from?

speaker-1: I think there's more of a danger to the pop artist in the top 100 artists than there is the rock artist. I think AI is definitely going to have a harder time, uh, mimicking, you know, really good rock and roll. Um, but you you've already heard the generic stuff sounds like everything that's not generic on the radio, you know, a generic song is a generic song. And you know, what a lot of people don't realize is most of your favorite pop stars have a writing room of, you know, However, many people that are very talented at writing that are just spitting out ideas like a computer would and then compiling them for the artist. then, you know, you've got the pretty face then to perform it. So it's already at a point where like what we're talking about in AI music in general is going to be just for the average consumer. You know what I mean? I don't think the threat is so much imitating the art. Here's the thing. These AI companies, they don't care about making good music. They care about taking the artists off the market. That's. That's what we're seeing. There's a reason why other countries outside the U S are banning a lot of these AI companies from doing this because you know, and not to get, you know, political or anything like that, but any science fiction novel or movie about a futuristic dystopian universe has showed us the first thing they're going to take away from people is the ability to create and the want and the need to consume real human creation. Cause once again, if you're not creating, you're conforming. And if you don't care about where your creations come from, if you don't care about the human art form, it's a lot easier to digest policy.

speaker-0: I in this, mean, I haven't actually seen the movie myself, but the metaphor of the movie, the human centipede is actually more accurate for that type of a situation in real life than the scientific experiment of can these people survive by eating shit and pooping it out? That's kind of what they're doing. Like, you know, anybody who wants to create real music still can obviously right now. But there was always like when I was kind of growing up and we're similar, you're a few years younger than me. But when I was growing up, There was always like a ⁓ hope or desire that you could grow up to be playing music professionally. Like you don't have to be a millionaire. don't have to have like a jet ski and a boat and all this, you know, like yacht and all this stuff and have a big house, but you could do it. You could tour. You could play music. You could make a living on it. Now it's like as a rock musician, it's very difficult because everybody's just drinking the sludge, the gruel, the whatever it is, right? Cause it's just what's being there. So I feel and I'm kind of sensing you're feeling the same thing because of how you answered that last question. But I don't know if fans can distinguish the difference between AI and pop music. And I think that AI absolutely could just bleed right into the top 100 and nobody would bat an eye at this point.

speaker-1: I think unfortunately this has been a slow progression into destruction. know, in order to talk about distinguishing those sounds, you first have to go back to like the early, probably late 90s, early 2000s. Like sound changed a lot when it came to rock music and pop music at that time. And a lot of the sounds you were hearing like drum wise and a lot of these things, you you're using artificial tools already to mask real live audio sound when it comes to recordings. So already we're kind of screening the ears for this big poppy clean ⁓ sound that is sometimes unrealistic, you know, when it comes to live audio recordings, you know. So I think we're also facing a time where we have to start subtracting some of those things and be a little more raw and a little more punk rock, you know. And that could be the rise of popularity too, you know, in political times and, know, AI times, all these times, like people are craving more raw, but we need to wake up and be a little more prepared. because the economy is destroyed touring, think for a lot of people's, domestic and internationally. it's going to be, making it kind of, without being a conspiracy theorist, I don't know a lot, but just from what I'm observing, it just seems like a really hard time to do this, which is why it's even more important. We've got to do this. Like the sense of urgency is just, it's insane.

speaker-0: Exactly.

speaker-1: It's not just me. talked to other musician friends and you know, a lot of close friends of mine and there's like the sense of like, like the real ones, like the real ones are stepping up going, all right, it's time to put on the gloves and like really pursue it. Cause what else is there, man? You know?

speaker-0: So let's talk about like kind of the big first threat and you kind of already alluded to this as well. The big first threat that AI poses to musicians is the infinite amount of content creation, Content creation in general. So one of the biggest dangers of AI generating music is that it can just flood the market. In general, it just kind of comes up there and can endlessly drown out what is real. Just like, you know, how the fake news bots on Facebook just send out all that massive, you know, bullshit stories and everybody assumes that it's real. And they don't know what's right and wrong anymore. And people think that, you know, a bug in Madagascar has killed 2000 people or whatever. And they're like, what are you talking about? ⁓ But that's that's the real thing is that, you know, there's a problem in that playlist and discovery become more difficult because there's the smaller artists is just being drowned out by all these bots and fake things. And, you know, as rock musicians, the ethos is, you know, identity and authenticity, which if nobody's caring about that, nobody's searching for that. And nobody can find it. Like it's going to kind of phase things out. So do you think that, you know, musicians who can't put out music in a frantic pace will lose in this scenario? Or do think that real people will still savor the music if and when it comes out as long as it's quality? Basically, do you think that quantity kills quality or vice versa in the end?

speaker-1: Hell yes. Hell yes. I don't know who said it, but there's a saying, if Dark Side of the Moon came out today, it wouldn't even cross your radar. You know what I mean? And I don't know if you know about the AJ Wyatt thing. You know, I don't know if it's someone messing with me or if it's just a coincidental, like, algorithmic thing, but you know, when I go solo, I used to go under AJ Wyatt because of Wyatt and the Ashes. wanted the association between the name and the solo. And I was playing Wyatt and the Ashes songs acoustically. Two years ago, An AI artist has emerged under the name AJ Wyatt and released singles such as Cantina Tina and similar titles to Wyatt and the Ashes songs. And it sounds nothing like us. You know, it's, it's a name and it's subject material, but that's all they need, you know, and without even getting into that, cause I don't know. I am open about the anti AI thing. If someone did spend the time to curate an AI artist that mirrored me. Holy shit, cool. Then you know I'm doing something right. Now, if it's, if it really is like some, like algorithmic big evil corporation conspiracy taken away from people, think about this for a second. How hard is it to come up with a really good band name that resonates with you? And then when you find that name and you Google search it to find out there's a hundred bands already named that name. Now you have a computer algorithmic AI system pumping out AJ Wyatt's and this and that. And, know, and just, you know, and then marketing it and branding it and making it impossible for you to use that name. This is what I mean about AI taking artists off the market. It's already headed towards a place where it's going to be the campfire and back alleys of venues. Like this is where we're at because I can't record under AJ Wyatt. And can't Tina. Tina has a million fucking streams.

speaker-0: Yep.

speaker-1: And I don't know how many people have heard, you know, our version. So it's, it's depressing. Like I laugh about it now, but when my buddy called me up and shared this information with me at 3 a.m., you know, I was like, had like a little mini, it does something to you as an artist, man. Like I'm not saying that my music or my art's important, but to me it has been. And to slow craft a song and choose your words, right? And you sit on these phrases for a couple of weeks and you're at work and you're working night shift and you're 12 hours over the road and you're driving and you're piecing these words together. And then you spend a year writing a song just to have like some computer version of you like a merge or whatever, like, here's. Yeah, it just sucks. ⁓

speaker-0: I mean, that was actually the threat number two that, you know, I would bring up is that voice style cloning identity theft, basically not making music that necessarily sounds like what you created, but just lifting your name, lifting the names of your songs and then basically creating something off of that. I mean, there are real risks that exist with AI that, you know, there are fake tracks that claim famous artists are singing and playing on them, you know, just taking names from real artists. ⁓ Scams that promote music all that stuff that you know say that there's a million streams who knows if there's really a million streams because who the fuck knows who's listening to this it could be bots it could be whatever ⁓ and you know deepfakes create offensive AI content that could damage your reputation if they actually pretended to be you while doing it right like going out and say like I support Isis or some crazy shit like that like anything can happen right so like they say that all press is good press but Something like that isn't necessarily gonna fucking help you, right? Like, ⁓ mean, stuff like that.

speaker-1: I think that's the fear for, for a lot of people, you know, but like you can't, you can't dwell on that, but here's the thing, you know, I don't know who said it, but what we allow as a society shape society. So yes, of course you and I will always distinguish the difference between something that, you know, it's really artificial and you could hear it and something that was curated with, with human passion and, and hands, but we're. The younger generations, it's going to get less and less, right? How many older, the old school guys that we grew up around were like, ⁓ you guys don't know shit. We used to track this on a fucking, like that's how it's headed, but you're going to have less and less real stuff, right? It's going to be too easy, you know? And like I said, it's been a slow progression, but we need to, we didn't have laws on stuff. think we need to distinguish what the difference is. you know, and back to your actual question, though, in terms of like a lot of content being pushed out and kind of like flooding on this. Yeah, like really sucks. Like I'm a bit of a collector. Like I collect vintage Ninja Turtle figures. Like I really love those things. But over the years, they they have rereleases. Right. And as a collector, it kind of takes away the fun of having the 1986 piece. If the fucking 2026 piece looks just like the 86 piece and now. You know, it's, does something to a collector. does something to an artist when you flow and you have the option. The fact that we're even talking about this and that there's an option for AI, it's already very pressing, you know? And I don't think the average consumer, the average person who isn't creating art or does this for a living or does this out of passion really cares or understands how fucking depressing it is. You know, it's like a police dog when you take them out of service, you know, the The meaning of life has been stripped away and a lot of them don't survive, but a couple of years after being taken out of service, you know, and, and that's how my heart feels, honestly, if I'm, I'm being for real, it's become harder, it's made me stronger. I have the sense of urgency. want to write more and I'm thankful for that. You know, yeah, kind of sucks. So, you know, I just have to prepare myself emotionally to write songs for that campfire. I keep going back to that, but. To me, that's where a real musician is going to be determined.

speaker-0: Yeah, and it's a visceral image that you're kind of putting in there like a real world example of a police dog being taken out of service. It's like if you if the thing that you've been doing that you love is suddenly just be like you can't do that anymore. They don't live much longer that you know, there's that thing of like, you know, most people after they retire and they don't have a plan for what they're going to do after retire. They don't live much longer. That's how like some of this kind of really plays out in the real world. So I think you're right. I mean it is it's soul stealing. It's like Heartbreaking and it's it's viscerally like you can feel it like you can feel it in your body when something like that is happening

speaker-1: They weren't even paying musicians before. It was a hard life already before. And now they're saying, ⁓ well, you know, the average person doesn't care if it's you or if it's this and this is cheaper. This is more convenient. This is, know, ⁓ here's a big one for you. And to make it easier to digest for the average listener, I compare this to nutrition and food. Right. Look at the food industry. Look at fast food. Right. Back in the day, everyone said. ⁓ fast food will never take over. The human knows the difference. The human knows the difference between real grown food and artificial food. This will never last. And nutrition is more important than fucking what you're listening to. And McDonald's is on every corner and it's fast and it's easy. And you know, those with the power and the money are in charge. And it's the same thing. Look where we're at with nutrition.

speaker-0: Yep.

speaker-1: It's the same evil bastards upstairs in the fucking nutrition world and the grocery stores and fucking them in your ears and in your eyes.

speaker-0: And it's getting worse. I mean, it's not like they're hiring better experts of nutrition these days. mean, obviously, RFK being the head of the FDA or whatever the fucking backwards food triangle that he's created. But yeah, you're exactly right. It's what you put into your body, the input and the output matter, right? Like whatever you put into your body, listening, food, all that stuff, it matters.

speaker-1: And you know, not to get off topic, but you know, in terms of AI and kind of this image that we have ⁓ from the movie Terminator, right? Starting to believe that the movie Terminator was worth the warning than it was anything because I think imagery wise, we're waiting for the machine gun wielding evil robot humanoid figure to come up. And really, it's we're all already there. Like the machines are are there and the visual of this I think has taken our brain off of they've won the war.

speaker-0: I mean, there's a reason why like, you know, some of the top tech executives don't let their kids have technology because of these exact reasons, right? Like, you know, if somebody from the 1950s was plopped into our world, they'd be like, holy fuck, nobody here knows how to talk to a human being. Like I've even, you know, just as an example, completely off topic, but you know, I've talked to younger people. like, have you ever asked a girl to go out with you like in person? Like, no, never happened. I'm like. that's never happened and they're like 20, 25 years old. They're I've never even like, it's either through text messages or like online. And it's like totally impersonal. It's still scary, I guess, but cause you're putting yourself out there. But like the difference between doing it in person and expecting a yes or no answer right there, like that is completely shocking that, know, 20, 25, 30 year olds potentially haven't even experienced something like that. similar to like bombing on stage, playing to a crowd that doesn't give a fuck if you're there or not. you know, playing a song that nobody claps at the end, you're like, what the fuck? Like those experiences do matter when you're actually a human being.

speaker-1: can't tell you the last time I shook another man's hand and he looked me in the eyes.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's crazy, huh?

speaker-1: Where are we going? Just using that as like an example for social structure and kind of just to touch on what you were just saying. But you know, that's, I don't know, things are different. Things are changing. You you got to accept that too. But I think there's a much bigger picture. And I think AI is kind of the entry or the window to a lot of much bigger, scarier things. But you I guess those are for other conversations. ⁓

speaker-0: you

speaker-1: We'll keep it on the rock and roll baby, you know what I mean? But there is a spirit to it and I think anyone that really knows that or realize that, they can see the difference, they can feel the difference. And I think at this point, the main goal as an artist should be to influence, positively influence as many people as you can in the art world and the community coming to shows, coming to these things to wanna pick up a guitar and do the same thing and show them that same level of spirit. You know what I mean?

speaker-0: I mean, there's a reason why both of you and I play guitar. We started playing, started writing music, started singing songs. It's not because, you know, we heard a song that we knew nothing about and it just, it sounded good or whatever. And so we decided to start playing. was because we probably listened to a song, actually heard what they were saying, understood what was going on, realized that it has some sort of connection with us as a human being. And then we wanted to try to, you know. Do some of that on our own, right? Do that in our own way. Whereas, you know, if you're hearing it from just an AI source and you never obviously can never watch these people, you know, these bands play live because they're not real. Obviously they can project images or videos, but it's not a real person, right? So like you're not seeing their human reaction. You're not seeing the passion, not hearing the gravel in their voice or whatever. Like, you know, they just played five shows and you know, they smoke and drink. And so like by the sixth day or whatever, their voice is tired and they're fatigued. You don't see that from AI you don't get that you know, in person kind of thing, right? You know, we were talking about a little bit about the economics like they didn't already pay musicians, right? They weren't paying rock musicians before AI wasn't a big thing or even invented. Since streaming kind of existed, it kind of has killed a lot of the payments and structure, but you can still make some money if you're kind of a big artist or whatever. But in a world where like essentially anything can be created for free and instantly. There's going to be a, you like I said, a bigger flood of all this stuff. AI tracks will also cut some of the licensing fees. Like people actually, you know, create music for shows, create people, you know, background music for videos that somebody might use online or whatever. Like there are like just everyday jobs that AI can now take out of the workplace, right? Like so thousands of like content creators, you know, they're artists, musicians, all that stuff's gone. Small production, jingles, you know, somebody could use for a business.

speaker-1: That's what I'm saying. Like that, that that's absolutely right, man. Like I just saw, ⁓ I forgot who it was, but they were talking about, you know, a famous guitar player who was playing the jingle on some fast food commercial or whatever. And for years, you know, I had no idea that that's who it was, but like things like that are so important when that goes out the window, where's the need or motivation for a kid to want to then become a musician or want to do that thing? ⁓ dad, where did that song come from? I love the way that sounds. What is that? Oh, that's a computer son. Well, I can't be one of those. Like you got I don't know like what's going on. Like it's always going to be there, but it's less and less. Right. There's that one block. There's that one blockbuster video that's still left in the United States. Right. There's a documentary about it. You know, the needs we have the burning desire and this need for things that we're just like, Oh, put it in a fucking museum. How about we don't?

speaker-0: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I mean, that's the great thing about, I mean, local shows, live shows, right? Like things where you actually meet people who aren't kind of detached from the reality of the fan experience, the live music experience. I still go to shows as much as I possibly can. Not, I don't necessarily go to a lot of the big shows. Like I'm not paying $400 to watch The Strokes. I'm just not going to. I'm never going to pay $400 to go watch a band. for two hours. I will take that $400 and I will put it across 10 different or 20 different shows and watch 20 different live music local shows and be much happier for it. I get 20 experiences, I get to meet 20 different groups of people, I get to experience things in a different way than standing 3,000 feet away from somebody and just watching from half a mile away or whatever and going, I can't even see anything unless I'm watching it on the screen. What is that experience? I don't think that that should go out the window because those artists also helped pave the way for the rest of artists and stuff like that. But it's like as a fan and somebody who has played music, I would much rather be in with the music than experiencing it, paying a bunch of money to experience it from this telescopic or what do call it, like a helicopter view. I'd rather be in it. Right. That's where the music really lives. You know, that's that's an experience that AI, you know, and most fans just don't even even acknowledge these days. It seems like that has gone out the window for most people.

speaker-1: If the creators keep getting more and more watered down and keep using AI as tools and then even if that performance is translated live, you're going to have less and less interest in it, man. There's, something about really shaking it out, man. And really sweating it out in front of people that fucking, Oh, okay. That's different. You know, I don't know. Like, I mean, look at all the digital stuff. I went to a metal show and it was all like, felt like it was all on tracks, man. I'm not judging, man. It sounds clean. It sounds fucking awesome. And these are way more talented fucking bands than I'll ever fucking be. But something takes me out of it when I'm like just listening to the track online basically. And you're just dancing in front of it like a pop star. Like make a fucking mistake. Stop being afraid. know, like make some noise, fucking bend the string different, like fucking scratch on the guitar. Like be stupid, man. Be yourself.

speaker-0: forward and fucking say, ⁓ shit.

speaker-1: Why not? Put the human back in everything. Fuck it, dude.

speaker-0: Yeah, well, we actually talked about this because the last show that I was at with yours, you had a tuning mishap. You're a bit nervous. You yeah, it happened. And you were like, you're fucking like freaking out in your mind, right? But then it's like everybody else is like patiently waiting. But you're just like, ⁓ fuck, I'm going to this is ruining the show.

speaker-1: I don't know how that shit happens. There's technical difficulties, but like what I could tell you about that is if If I didn't have the fucking experience of doing what I was doing I would have ran off that stage You know, I think anybody would you know, and that's just what happens, you know, but like you fucking fight through it You smile about it, know you whatever and then you figure out how to you know Make sure that the thing doesn't happen again you know in that situation it was like knocked around the guitar so hard that the whole thing just fucking like severely something with the bridge and just knocked everything out of tune so in that moment in front of like you know there was a lot of publicity i think at that show because it was you know so there was like a lot of cameras and a lot of things like we were filming a music video and everything so but what's funny if you go online you see the music video from a call that live video that we did that's literally the song after that fuck up so if you see my face in that video there's like this aggression of like time to fucking bring it back you know what i mean And there was that sense of urgency and I love that that nervousness and anxiety on stage like that's your friend dude. That's the superpower and you go okay let's use that you know fight or flight and you fight it's a good show you know no matter what you know you're gonna fuck out dude it's whatever.

speaker-0: Yeah. Alright, so let's talk about some of the things because we talked about, know, obviously making some laws and stuff like that, but things that can actually be done in three different phases. ⁓ artists, fans, industry. Maybe even potentially like laws and stuff like that. But what can be done to fight AI from basically killing rock music forever? And I think the first thing obviously that that I mentioned is now they can't play it a lot of people say like, you know, your music saved my life. Your your music helped me in a time of need. I guarantee there's no there's no AI story like that. I listen to this AI music and I've also and I like stop myself from taking pills or whatever. I can tell you like from listening to your music like crazy pills vitamins you know all these other songs that kind of story absolutely could be real I don't know if anyone has ever told you that but they're dead that kind of music would be like absolutely would you know get me off a ledge or make me feel better about myself or make me understand myself better than before I listen to it so you know what can bands and fans do to keep the connection between artists and fans strong I think the first thing is that artists need to engage harder I don't mean that they need to share more like you were mentioning like I don't need I don't need to see my band you know ⁓ eating cereal, my favorite singers eating cereal in the morning or whatever, like sharing their breakfast, but stories behind the music, engage with that, give behind the scenes, talk about the culture that your music is creating, talk about the people, give stories, you know, feedback about the bands or the bands that you play with, but also the fans that talk to you, show rehearsal clips, writing sessions, ⁓ you know, whatever, right? Like also they can ⁓ limit the content where it's distributed, right? So like you don't have to put everything on Spotify, like That's not the healthiest place for all music to live for it, right? Like you could put it on your band camp. You could put it on your own website. You can, you know, only release certain tracks for free and make, you know, the kind of put everything else through a paywall or whatever. do you kind of see how like on your side, do you kind of feel like that's starting to happen more for you? Or is that something like you feel like you have to keep pushing stuff out and just creating content to keep up?

speaker-1: Man so passionate about everything that we're talking about that. It's so hard to like Take everything I want to say, you know, I mean I could soapbox this topic for like forever but but to simply put it think artists need to do bigger and greater things less and I think we're living in a society of you know, everyone's chasing the fame online. So it's like content like You know what I mean? But if you look at most viral content creators They got one or two fucking banger videos that are just hilarious and then everything else is they're trying to recreate that fucking stupid-ass video again and again and again and again and again hoping something hits now that is Valid sometimes and that does work. I write for the trash can you know me fucking little Songs I write in a day, and I'm just like ⁓ you know nope, but I think especially for rock know, because you specifically ask about the rock music and you you word that in these questions. So to put that rock and roll is supposed to be mysterious and fucking cool. And if you're doing this, there's nothing fucking mysterious or cool about it. So once again, I'm not some leading expert. I've never won an award for a song I you know,

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: don't have a million fucking songs released and there's even local artists have done way more and I could speak on this more than than I should but I would like to just see better content and less you know and I mean I think that's the main thing you can do mean what you do right if the urgency and the importance and the burning desire is there for what you're doing people are gonna see that in your art And you gotta be okay with it not being a hit right away. You gotta be okay with even accepting the fact that your songs might not even be heard till you're dead. You know, maybe the best photographers and the best artists and the best songwriters, the best poets, 20, 30 fucking years after they die, their shit gets dug up from an old chest or whatever. ⁓ know, Vivian Myers, one of the best photographers ever, was a nanny who didn't develop a single photo. Some kid fucking bought her shit at an auction and she's the most famous.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: photographer, you got to be okay with that. And you got to love what you do enough and not care about it really resonating with people. And I think that's where the connection will come. You know, like trying to write all these songs and do all this stuff. People know me more being against AI locally. And you know, here we are in this interview, you never know what's gonna hit you just got to be yourself.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty happy knowing that, you know, 20,000 years from now some Alpha Centaurians are really going to rock my music out later.

speaker-1: Yeah, you know, I don't know what I'm doing really, you know what I mean? But I could tell you this honestly, I believe in what I'm Never released a song that I didn't connect to personally. And I've never released anything that I wasn't, you know, really proud of, at least in the writing aspect of it. In other hands, touch recording and do things like that, you get the best you can. And it's not, and I'll be honest, I'm delivering you probably only 50 or 60 % of what the song sounds like in here. You know, I'm doing like I'm Like I kind of feel like songs are a gift and you get these melodies and you get these things that kind of come to you in an inspirational moment, right? And you ride that wave.

speaker-0: much you know, like I think I think there was this I think it was Isaac Newton who said something to the effect of like, basically, there's never a perfect mechanic. Basically, you have this idea and then you try to recreate that idea in some way, or form you mechanically are you know, music art and creatively or whatever. And there's never going to be a perfect a person can never do that perfectly. Right. So and the quote ends with like something like if you ever do achieve that perfection, like fucking you've reached the zenith. Right. Like there's just no way that you can really achieve that. But people constantly try to do that. And I think there is, you know, when I write music, I have this like great idea in my head. I'm like, oh, man, it's gonna be so awesome. I start to write. I'm like, I'm fucking terrible. I cannot do what I'm trying to do. Like it's it's a it's a reasonable facsimile. but it's nothing like I want it to sound. I still, I'm like, okay, I still like it. Like, and we talked about this, like, I like every song that I've ever written. actually liked the music that I write. I will listen to it later because it's like, it means something to me. It's the kind of music I want to listen to. Where when people say like, I don't really listen to my own music. I'm like, I don't know that I trust your judgment in music. If you don't like the music that you're creating then, and why should I like your music if you don't like it? Like, or if you don't listen to it. I think you should like to listen to your own music.

speaker-1: You know, everybody's different and in terms of passion, you know, you can't control how one person feels. I'm probably fans of several artists that probably don't care about what they're doing, you know, but, you know, here's a way to just kind of sum it up, man. I feel like wherever I'm grabbing music from comes from a four dimensional place and I'm making it three dimensional. And then that's being translated by another human. take that three dimensional content and then they either connect with it in a four dimensional way that resonates with them. But when you're pulling music from AI, it's always going to be two dimensional. Now it might give you an artificial feeling of four dimension, but I don't know.

speaker-0: Yep, no, I get it. totally get it. ⁓ Yeah. So obviously as artists, you know, create better stuff, right? Like that's going to help. think, you know, quality is better than quantity necessarily. Like you said, I think fans that that's ⁓ a thing that they can do is they can support harder. So artists engage harder. Fans support her follow bands, save songs, buy merch, go to live shows, share performances. Like you said, share clips, buy stuff, give praise like I never, the thing I never see really, unless they're like, posting a video is people going around talking about how cool that show was of a live local band that they saw this. I never see that unless they were talking about it with somebody who was also there. And I constantly am telling like, ⁓ man, like I had a fucking great time at the space the other day or I had a great time at Red Dwarf or at Red Dwarf is my fucking favorite bar for the exact reason. Like I can go watch live music and get drunk and have fun and eat pizza, eat wings, whatever. That's the kind of stuff that you never see is like you never see human beings in real life praising local bands to people who just, you know, what did you get up to this weekend? I went to a bar on Saturday night. They don't even talk about it. So that I think is huge. You know, obviously fans can also call up fakes and counterfeits and, and, know, fund the local scene, go to those local venues. But from your, from your opinion, I mean, you know, as an artist, you always, you know, you don't want to say like fans should be doing this because it's like, it almost sounds like complaining, but Do you kind of you kind of agree with like with some of the stuff that I'm saying as someone who is a fan, passionate, like I wouldn't fucking create a podcast for this exact reason to fight AI, to fight the over, you know, overthrowing of rock music. And this is what I've done as a fan, but I'm not I'm not the, you know, the majority of people, obviously, but, you know, from an artist, you know, how do you see fans engagement and how does it feel from, you know, different from maybe any other experience you've had?

speaker-1: I think there's, I think local scene and local band and local music and local artists. That's a bad word. I think it's a bad word because it takes away value. I think it puts a image in someone's head that this is a easily obtainable thing that's here every weekend. This is something that's less than a non-local band, but this is Las Vegas, Nevada, if we're talking about it specifically. uh, You know, there's a lot of competition when it comes to like cover artists, you know, I think the best musicians are making money in cover bands. They're not guys like me. And I mean, so when it comes to original creation, it's even harder. But if you do like a band, support the band, follow the band, do all the things, you know, it's funny. ⁓ You know, people talk about seeing unity and, you know, all these things, but, know, I've got a closet full of t-shirts and I try to buy the record and t-shirt of every band I've ever. On a C, you know, I've got Crimson Raya, I've got Nova babies, I got. I got everybody, it's like, I share people's stuff and I pay attention. I really pay attention. I see who's really in it and whose heart's really in it and who's really doing the thing. I'd say for a good band, I think most good bands that I look up to are already kind of doing the less available thing. Only doing shows like really better or being less engaging really to then deliver a better experience. I love to play and I don't... I don't really care about that other stuff or like looking cool. Like I want to play as much as I can play. And that's just kind of me. But if we're talking about marketing, cause this is kind of where it leans into, I think if you have a great product, deliver it the best you can and do the big things that matter, you know, care less about this. And then I think people will value you more, the less desperate that you are.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: And when you don't give a fuck and you're like, am an asshole. Yeah, I don't really care. Yeah, I believe in my music. I don't care if you like it or not. Yeah. Oh, really? Oh, cool. I don't care. And I think, you know, unfortunately, you know, that's that's the attitude you got to have and just keep fighting, man. You know, know how many artists I've seen like fall off over the year and they get mad. They're like, well, I don't make any money. I don't. Bro, it's a miserable, long fucking painful road. You're gonna lose relationships. You're gonna lose things, you know. You might even lose a job over a gig that wasn't really important to you. Like, this is the reality of things, you know? And if you're not willing to do that, then stop crying about it and just do something else. know, pick up crochet or... You know, I hear archery's pretty cool.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of losing a job, like I one of my things that I wanted to do, obviously, I wanted to be a musician and tour and do all that cool stuff. But another passion of mine was journalism and broadcasting and stuff like that. So here I am today doing this on my own because like I've never tried to get a job in broadcasting and journalism, but I did at one time in my life actually walk out of a job. It wasn't really I mean, it was a job, but like I had the opportunity to interview Vanderlei Silva, who is a UFC fighter and I it was during the work hour and I just said I'm quitting this job today so I can go interview Vanderlei Silva, even though I'm not getting paid for this. I just want to do it. And I was like, fuck it. Like I don't want this job anyway. So yeah, I'm gonna go find another job. I'm gonna go interview Vanderlei Silva today.

speaker-1: So my first band that I sung and wrote in was called Contest of Arms and there's a full record on all the platforms and it's like 11 or 12 songs. It was a compile of two early EPs and we released it. Everybody from that band went on and did really big things. Cisco was the singer and screamer for I Set to Kill. Paul went off and was in the original lineup of Sleeping with Sirens. But like, dude, was like, you know, because I was scared. I was scared of BAME dude, like I'll be honest with you. Like I didn't believe I could do it. I lived with regret for so many years and I walked away from the band to go to fill the American dream that greatly disappointed me. You know what I mean? So it's, you know, you just gotta fight for what you believe in, do what you love, take the gig, risk the job. They don't give a fuck about you, especially now. No one cares. You gotta care. You gotta care. Take the anger, put it inward to build yourself more like

speaker-0: Yep.

speaker-1: Don't even worry about revenge. Don't worry about attacking other people. Don't worry about saying this about that person. Focus on you. Focus on, know, build yourself together, man. You know, it's it's a there's an old story. I know we're running out of time, but just to like kind of wrap that up if you want. Sure. You know, there's there's this little kid and he's he's bugging his dad. The dad's watching this really important football game and it's the most important game of the year. And the son wants to play with his dad and dad gets frustrated and and ⁓ grabs this front page of a newspaper that has a picture of the world on it and tears it up into 100 pieces and gives it to the kid and says, here, this is a puzzle to occupy you, you know, go put the world together and then come back and see me when you're done. Within five minutes, the kid comes back and the world's perfectly put together. And the dad's shocked at how fast that was. And dad goes, wow, how did you do that? And the goes, well, on the back was a picture of a man. I just put the man together and then the world was together too. And I just think that needs to be the focus, you or else we're going to keep fighting. you know, ways that are not constructive. So be a creator, not a consumer.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And then obviously with the industry government, there are ways that they can help obviously fight AI like you mentioned, make sure that there are laws that you know, push to get things like labels, AI labels on every form of art, not just you know, music, but also art, you know, graphics, visuals, videos, all that stuff. So people know, like, this can't be a repeat. In my opinion, this cannot be a repeat of the fake news bots just launching like As soon as that's allowed to continue beyond what we're talking about right now, and I assume it probably will be, it just will kill everybody's imagination, creation, ⁓ self, inner, whatever you want to call it, like their soul, right? Like the thing that makes them who they are, they will lose a lot of that by all this information and all this stuff being artificially created. I think there should be ⁓ a standardizing of licensing and content systems for voice and style usage for those who give consent. Yeah, if I want my stuff to be used for AI, I need to be paid for that. If I don't, I can opt out and that can never be allowed, right? Like right now it's like a loose agreement that like if ⁓ a creator opts out, but essentially it's probably already been there and it's already been used before they even opt out. Like anything you put on the internet, this conversation we're having right now could be used to inspire AI to do something else with it. I can say I opt out, but how would I know if they used it in any way, right? Like I have no idea. And obviously, stronger enforcement and faster removal. Like those are things that can be systematically done.

speaker-1: Absolutely, we need that, you know, but a lot of these corporations and you know, Spotify and all these guys, it's my theory that they're in bed with the government. So, ⁓ we hope for the best to be prepared for the campfire. That's that once again, that's like this, this image that keeps popping in my head. Just be prepared for the campfire y'all. You know what I mean? Yeah. I agree with everything you said. There needs to be those in place, but you know, we can't, we just got to vote for that. We got to try and, ⁓ defend that and want that and voice that and hopefully that comes around. There's a lot of people that are fighting for that, but there's this is a weird time. My guy, you know.

speaker-0: Wouldn't it be weird if Ticketmaster and Live Nation jumped on board to create some sort of laws that stop the dissemination of AI music for the simple fact that it could potentially destroy their fucking monopoly, which is almost absurd. Like Live Nation and Ticketmaster basically screwing every artist in the world out of like the freedom to choose what they can charge for tickets and what they should be able to choose for venues. Wouldn't that be weird if AIs rise in music popularity basically said We don't need to have live shows and AI like Live Nation and Tick Master are like, ⁓ fuck, maybe we should do something about this now.

speaker-1: Well, look at the look at the dome. Look at the you know, they're doing a I they're filming bands. They're charging you a thousand dollars to see him and then charging you 50 later on for the rerecording of the hologram of them on stage. Like that's already happening with the big artists. You know what I mean? They don't care about us. They're not worried about the little guy. That's why we got to keep doing these things. You know, make the local scene good. Make it good. Keep the shit out. Keep the good in. Let's really make it because a lot of us aren't going to be able to afford to tour. So let's do the Vegas thing and have a residency. Let's make them come to us, you Who knows? The possibilities are endless, but you gotta fight,

speaker-0: So the crossroads are right now because AI isn't going to be the thing that kills rock music. Apathy will actually be the thing that causes the complete collapse. But rock music has survived disco, synth, pop waves, streaming and all the other musical evolutions and it does so by adapting with the soul and heart it takes to overcome existential crises. The real threat isn't that AI will create more content. It'll be that humans ⁓ decide it's good enough and don't care that it's replacing human created music. So a few things I think everyone can do in the next 30 days to help fight this AI revolution would be doing one of these small actions. Number one, go support an independent small local band, whatever, buy a shirt, vinyl, check out a show, build a playlist of your favorite independent artists, whatever. Start a podcast, do whatever you want. Number two, send an email to Spotify. and any other streaming service to tell them to put audio tags and labels on AI-generated music. I'll actually put the link to contact Spotify below this episode. Number three, go listen to Wyatt and the Ashes. Wherever you listen to music, follow them on social media. All the tags will be in the show notes below. You know AJ, I want to thank you for being on the show. I love your music. You're an awesome guy. You're a great dude, and I wish the best for you with your life and your music and you know, I appreciate you being on the show today. So make sure to go check out his music. AJ, do you have anything that you want to promote or talk about before we get off? I know you've got show. You just played a show and you know you got probably more.

speaker-1: Just look out look out for more shows. You're gonna be doing a lot of bigger things this year I think we are gonna be moving future recordings off of the platforms. I think for now Everything all new releases will be band camp or tangible exclusive with probably just as simple as a post on YouTube for stream That's just the way I think we're going on that and if you come to shows I'm really big on the hand-drawn art. We're gonna I'm gonna be releasing demos on cassettes So just raw bedroom recordings just off the mic of a tape recorder type stuff. Like I'm going to be giving those out. I really want to get back to like what made it fun and why we love doing what we do. And I think this is kind of a good opportunity if you look at it in a positive way as AI might destroy certain elements, but it might be bringing back others. you know, thanks so much for.

speaker-0: was gonna make a comeback and here I've got like 80 vinyl records over here and a record player that I never thought I would have.

speaker-1: Hey, you know what? Thank God the consumer still likes tangible.

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. All right, so make sure to go check out the notes, show notes for all the ways to support Wyatt and the Ashes and see a quick checklist of ways you can help real artists fight the rise of Skynet. That's the show for today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you learned anything or like what you heard on the show today, please show us some support and subscribe to this channel and like, comment and share this video with a friend or put it up on social media. I hate to keep asking, but without those small actions, the YouTube bots pretty much ignore this channel. Putting these videos out is a lot of work. If you want to show your appreciation, please consider purchasing some of our musical accessories or merch from our store at poweredbyrock.com. You can read our blog and follow us in the links below as well. Those are the plugs and that's all I have. I'll see you soon for the next episode. Until then, rock on.