speaker-0: G'day folks, it's Adam Gibson here and I'm joined today by Professor Ian Brighthope. I'm just extremely grateful to have you here, Ian. think you're one of the genuine pioneers in Australian medicine and nutritional environmental medicine in particular. With a background in agricultural science and researching animal nutrition, as you went on to become a doctor and I think a surgeon, a bachelor of medicine and of surgery, I believe, you went on to sort of, I guess, the process of, I suspect, asking questions and being curious and Looking at the gaps in the medical system, he went on to be the founder of the Australian College of Nutritional Environmental Medicine. I, worked in that space as a business coach and helping people who've been through your college, I can't imagine, it must be thousands upon thousands of far better educated doctors in this country due to your efforts. And I think specifically today, we're talking here today about the food pyramid and what could really be easily described as a biggest shift in our food system in generations, but specific to our audience. And you're one of the, I think the most outspoken and fearless and most composed doctors speaking up against the COVID narrative in general, but particularly around what I interviewed you during COVID was around the COVID vaccine and its relevance to children, if it's going to be harmful or not. And some of the alternatives you talked at length back then around simple solutions like vitamin C, D and zinc, I believe, and just things we could all do that, you know, appeared to be pretty straightforward and simple, but we will push down a vaccine narrative instead. So I have enormous respect for you and everything you've done and continue to do. You're now the founder of World of Wellness, which I'll ask you to talk about. ⁓ you know, ⁓ in the research I did just coming into this interview, I noticed a quote, is, around your lifelong ambition ⁓ to change the way medicine and healthcare is practiced for the benefit of the individual and for the public and seeing nutritional environmental medicine as a foundation for world health and world peace. I fully respect the man of your, the number of gray hairs in your head who's still at it and still going. So really appreciate all the work you've done in this space and grateful to have you. Let's just start up quickly or from the beginning, not even quickly, but. What's just happened, I think in the world of nutritional medicine in particular in the US with Robert Kennedy introducing this upside down food pyramid, I think is one of the biggest shifts I've seen in a generation and I've been in health and wellness my whole life like you have. What's your immediate comment on that and what's your take on it? we at a tipping point in terms of a move towards better health?

speaker-1: Look, I think we are at a tipping point. Certainly in the US, they need to be at a tipping point because of the very poor quality of food that most people consume. But the inversion of the pyramid is not a good idea because it shouldn't be one size fits all for all of us. One of the things that I've spoken about many, many times is that individuality is a crucial factor in nutrition and we cannot prescribe a system of food intake that is going to satisfy everybody. When we have a look at the food pyramid, for example, whether it's right way up or upside down, there is at least one food group, if not two food groups, which many people are allergic to. And that includes the dairy and the cereal grains. And they're two big sectors of the food pyramid that people are reacting to. there are various reasons why they react. I think We need to have a flattened system, a flattened plate with the sectors on it that people should be focusing on. the most important thing that I emphasize to everybody is you've got to take processed foods out of your diet. All processed foods, whether they come in a tin, a packet, a can, they are processed, they have additives, and they are dead foods. They are not. living foods. And I think there are some things that come in in bottles such as olive oil, which is good for us. But the majority of things we find in the supermarket on the shelves are not good for us. And they contain chemical additives, blurrings, filerings, emulsifiers, et cetera. And all of these things play a very important role in the health or the disease of our gut. And it doesn't take very much of an additive to change the gut flora, you know. The gut flora is where all disease, according to Hippocrates, starts. And let me just add another proviso that I say to the classes that we take or I took. Not every ⁓ person can tolerate a chemical and the ingestion of a single chemical can change the nature of the gut flora for a long period of time. And that change in the gut flora or the bacteria in the gut. persists, it may be quiet for a period of time, but sooner or later there'll be an inflammatory response. There'll be a leakage of the gut. There'll be an inflow of proteins that are not well digested from the gut to the bloodstream to the immune system and a reaction will occur. And we really do need to focus our attention on the foods that we are eating. and the processed foods in particular. RFK Junior is very switched on with regard to the seed oils and these aren't dangerous oils and they are present in our foods as well. seed oils contain high levels of omega-6 essential fatty acids and we don't get enough omega-3 essential fatty acids in our diet as it is. And this is the reason for the need for fish oils and fish in our diet. But let me say that we have a high level of omega-6 in our diet, not only from the processed foods, but also from meat and beef in particular, and other animals that we consume because they are fed seed oils as a source of energy as well. So that the entire system does need ⁓ a dramatic change. The other thing, the two causes of disease, one is toxicity or a relative toxicity, and the other is a deficiency or a relative deficiency. When we look at somebody with an illness, whether it be a cancer or a psychiatric problem or an autoimmune disease or diabetes, we have to look at the toxicity levels in their system and we have to look at the deficiency diseases or the deficiencies in their system. And they can be relative toxicities, they can be relative deficiencies. And they're multifactorial. There are many nutrients that can be deficient or relatively deficient. And there can be many, many toxic substances, including the toxic environment that you mentioned in the protocol that you sent to me of questions. Things like the electromagnetic forces, the use of ⁓ Wi-Fi instead of a direct linkage to your computer, the lack of sunlight. I mean, that's a deficiency of a nutrient, not just a single nutrient, but a lack of the photons from light that hit our skin. and produce not only vitamin D but melatonin and stimulate our mitochondria, etc. So it's a very, very complex web that's woven ⁓ that we need to understand and we need to slight changes slowly so that we can actually absorb the need for the change that has to occur if we're going to have a healthy population. The first thing's first, Adam, sugar. Out of your diet. No sugar, I say to patients. No sugar, white flour, products, alcohol. Out of your diet completely.

speaker-0: Okay, no sugar, no white flour.

speaker-1: No alcohol. Other white things like white potatoes. mean, potatoes is a complex carbohydrate and they're good for us, but not too much because it breaks down to short. You know, we really need to focus on meats, meat, fish, poultry. Those are the things that nutrient dense. They provide us with the amino acids. They provide us with the essential fatty acids. They provide us with vitamins, minerals, all of the things that keep us healthy and alive and well. That plus. vegetables in particular green leafy vegetables, but green peas and beans, orange vegetables. They're absolutely every day should be, you know, the old meat and three vegetables or meat and vegetables is, is you can't beat it. not, it's not that complicated. Not that difficult. No. I mean, we've, we've got a barbecue out the back. We go out and barbecue our meat and we've got vegetables coming out of our ears and you know, it It doesn't take very much protein to fill you up either and keep you satiated, keep you satisfied. So the answer is staring us in the face. It's very, very simple. But our fast, speedy lifestyle has encouraged us to go to the supermarket, get a can of something, tip it or pack it, put it into a microwave and heat it up and eat it. And it's full of garbage. It's full of garbage. It's just trash. can't... I can't emphasize how bad it is for most of these foods.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's been normalized, isn't it? I think that's the difference between the meat and free veggies you just mentioned and what most of us in a certain age grew up on. And what is now normal is shocking.

speaker-1: That's right. You say it's been normalized. I say it's been weaponized. know, the big food is working with big pharma and big food know that they're poisoning us and big pharma know that they're poisoning us, but they've got the answers. They've got the solution, which is basically controlling of symptoms. If you don't mind. Adam, you went a bit...

speaker-0: It's a good business model. I said, it's it's a fabulous business model as long as you don't have a conscience. Yes. that point of view, just, just step it back a bit. Cause what you've just, think I probably should just precursors. I should have said this upfront, but the, for those listening, the traditional food pyramid I mentioned was based on grains as a foundation food of, you know, 80, like 70 % of your diet or something to the effect and sort of kept, um, high meat, eggs and product at the peak and fats and all of all right at the peak of the pyramid. And what RFK is suggesting is that sort of should be reversed in so far as you don't want to have your diet based on grain because nutrient density and good fresh freshest dense food based on protein, good fats, veggies, that side we agree with, right? Yeah. But the one size doesn't fit all. That's a really important one dimension. And the processing, look, I've been in the fitness and wellness industry my entire life. I've seen as I'm sure you have seen, you know, the Pritikin diet and then the vegan diet and then the, the Atkins and the

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: countable.

speaker-1: Sorry, Adam, you broke up. You broke up with it.

speaker-0: Okay. You got me again. That's okay. All these diets come and go, but the main reason I think people see a benefit, the commonality is always you cut out processed food. That's the common thing, you know, that's, therefore you see a change in the body because if processed food disappears, really necessarily the diet, it's what you take out. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yes, I mean, I talk about a lifestyle and try to leave good nutrition as a part of a healthy lifestyle. And, you know, everything should be whole, everything should be fresh. And if you cannot identify it, then don't touch it.

speaker-0: Google, Google the thumb, which leads me to my next question. I want to ask you a bit more about beef and white flour and things you mentioned, but just in terms of practical, what you've just given us there is a fairly broad and, you know, there's a lot of layers to it. And for an average parent, myself included, trying to pack a healthy lunchbox for the kids. What does that look like nowadays? Cause if you look at the shelves in Woolies, it's kind of terrifying what is available and branded as kind of health food. Cause it's all processed and all in package. Packages. What should kids be eating at lunchtime? What's in a lunchbox in your view?

speaker-1: I took the questions that you sent me and this is one of the questions and I've written down what I would put in a child's lunch box. I'll read it out. Right. It's very simple. whole foods, grass-fed beef or pasture raised chicken in strips. Very, very good. Very, very healthy. And if it's cooked right, they love it. Hard-boiled eggs, full fat cheese. There's so many cheeses on the market. Beautiful. And you don't need very much. Or yogurt with no added sugar. Now be careful with yogurts because you can be sensitive to the sugar in the natural lactose present in the yogurts. So some people are sensitive to yogurts and they get belly aches and they don't realize that it's the yoghurt they're drinking. with that proviso, then sure. Fresh veggies like carrots, cucumbers, any vegetables can be cooked or can be raw. Give them some avocado, some nuts, some olive oil or olive oil dip or some other dip. such as tofu or hummus. That's plenty. Give them some berries, an apple, banana, some fruit. What more do they want? By the time they've finished their meat, you can give them fish providing it's well cooked and then they're not going to be in the sun and that sort of thing. And you can give them a small amount of all grain sourdough bread if they really need a grain. But try to keep the breads. out of it as much as possible they can and hydrate them with water. It's a very good hydrating agent. Funnily enough, raw milk if you can get it. There are other hydrating agents like coconut water, coconut milk, that sort of thing. But that becomes expensive. I think once the child is onto something healthy and they're feeling good, they don't need a lot of sugar to fit. So lift them up because their blood sugar levels are going along up and down like this rather than up and down, up and down. Get them off that. Sugar Roller Coaster.

speaker-0: See a lot of, a lot of kids go through they don't know they're just on a up and down on the sugar high up and down all day long. And that's, that's hard for an adult. They're like for a kid trying to concentrate at school. Very good. And that looked at that requires a bit more preparation, maybe in a bit more forethought. It's not as easy as whipping a, I don't know, an up and go in a packet of chips. And that's kind of the point is, isn't it really? Disappeared again. Let me just see if I can change this for us.

speaker-1: You disappeared again. I don't think it's my end, I think that...

speaker-0: It's probably mine. look, given that parents, know, parents are busy. I think the big difference now from really, there's a gremlin in the system today, isn't there?

speaker-1: Yeah sure is. You haven't got another app open that's interfering with this? Yeah that's fine. Doesn't matter.

speaker-0: You got me now or not? Sorry, I have no idea what's happening there. Just in terms of, and this is a hard one, it's just acknowledging, I guess, with parents, with two parents working, trying to get kids out the door in the morning, you know, putting a lunchbox together. You know, it's not as simple, it's not as, it's not straightforward. does, it's just acknowledging it takes more effort, more intention behind it. It's more expensive, I think, to feed your kids well than it is to feed them garbage, it seems. You know, like it's the garbagey food are getting cheaper and easier. Is that just a mindset shift in your view? You've coached a lot of people in this space. What's thoughts there?

speaker-1: ⁓ look, is a mindset shift, absolutely, and you've got to do it slowly. I think it's important that you give yourself plenty of time in the morning to get ready, ⁓ and at night time, you can actually put the lunch box together at night and pop it in the fridge. That's another suggestion. And the kids can help with their lunch boxes as well, because kids love to get in the kitchen and play around. Gets them off the screens as well, but it is not something that we can achieve overnight. It's something that we've got to slowly move into and break one of the habits at a time rather than change the whole system. You know, I think there are many, many ways of making the changes and the mums and dads combined in the kitchen with the kids brings the family together rather than the kids on their screens in their bedrooms and wasting time. You say that this is cheaper, it's... Sorry, you say that the changes I'm suggesting are more expensive and the current system is cheaper, but the current system is creating illness and disease and that is a great inconvenient to people, especially in the states where over 50 % of children have got a chronic degenerative disease, which is something we never heard of when I was a child. We only had one asthmatic in the whole school. It was rather an unusual situation now, asthma and puffers and so forth. a common place and we have a healthier population if we spend a little bit more on food and less on some of the other devices that we're wasting our money on. think, you know, it's self-discipline, it's less hampering than chronic ill health. It's another one of my favorite sayings. Self-discipline, yeah, well, please, it's not my quote, it's somebody else's, but I love it. Self-discipline is far less hampering than chronic ill health. And this is what we need. I think the changes that I'm suggesting are not going to occur overnight. They're going to occur generationally. There's going to be another generation of children coming through and another generation. And slowly we will turn things around because supermarkets are not going to go out of business and throw away all of the junk food that they've got. They're going to keep on fostering this disease industry for as long as they possibly can because they're all a part of the bigger. the bigger picture of Black Rock and the investment, global investment into food. The thing that frightens me also, Adrian, is the use of synthetic meats and synthetic proteins, synthetic foods that Mr. Gates and his foundation are fostering. It's,

speaker-0: Yes. Although the share, their share price is just, think beyond meat, the share price has gone from, there was a thousand dollars when it launched and it's now under 4 cents or something. They may have done themselves in anyway, what, what's just talked about, talk about that. Actually, what I do want to ask you bit more about meat and beef, because you've mentioned that a couple of times. So let's just start with the fake meat and what's wrong with it. And then let's talk about regenerative or grass fed versus, ⁓ you know, factory meat, if you like.

speaker-1: Well, the synthetic meat is not meat. It looks like meat. It may taste a bit like meat, may have ⁓ nutrients in it that are contained in meat, but it doesn't have all of the vitamins and minerals and the wholeness of meat that we understand that meat is about. When you don't have that wholeness, it's a completely different structure ⁓ with different functions than the meat in the real meat that we eat. It's nothing like meat. It's synthesized in the laboratory and it may be digested like meat, but it doesn't have all of the cofactors. doesn't have the ingredients that unite the meat. It doesn't have the structure of meat.

speaker-0: It's just made out of GMO soy isn't it? Isn't that basically made from a glyphosate GMO ready food.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's bizarre. It's like nothing on earth.

speaker-0: I haven't seen you lost for words many times before but that probably says enough.

speaker-1: It doesn't have the infrastructure, not the infrastructure, the quantum. It doesn't have the quantum, which is basically the life force of everything that's living. It's never had the life force and the life forces are getting down to quantum mechanics and the interaction, not just molecules of amino acids and so on. But we're talking about ⁓ the very, very, very subtle. substances that are present in living things that make us living. It may be a living thing, it may have been a living thing, but it still has that soul within it and that's what gets us life and life forces. I'm getting into some fairly esoteric stuff here, which I think I might avoid going any further.

speaker-0: But it's, think it's good to go to, I think, you know, it's a really important point is that, you know, we have been sort of taught or conditioned to think that food is just this inert calorie intake and it's not, it's affects your mood, it affects your gut and all the health, physical, but it does have this, a meal that is fresh out of a garden is just vibrantly different from a meal that's come out of a box or out of a, you know, I think what you're saying is, you know, if you've all experienced it, if you think about it.

speaker-1: make cheese in France from raw milk, is the same cheese in France made here is very, very different. It's very different. The raw milk has its own properties. It's still got its life forces.

speaker-0: It's interesting, you're not allowed to buy real milk in most places, now, which should tell you something in itself, if you can get hold of it, you recommend it? Yeah. Coming back to beef, again, there's so many points I could ask you about here, but meat, my understanding is the beef, comes out of a feed lot, is basically cows that are taken off a paddock, put on concrete and fed grain until they get fat and inflames enough to be a certain weight and then knocked on the head.

speaker-1: Yes, I do.

speaker-0: That's where beef has got a bad reputation. It's methane emissions and it's bad for you. The fats aren't good for you in that. There's a lot of Omega six, think, rather than Omega three. That's what people are comparing beef with, but beef that comes off a paddock, grass-fed, what's the

speaker-1: The grass-fed beef, you can tell the difference when you're eating it. The beef that comes off a grass pasture is the beef that I'm talking about. This is the healthy beef. You've got to make sure that it's grass-fed and it's been grass-fed all its life because the tricks that the trade get up to, I was told by a colleague yesterday that for example, they want to King Island, the beef from King Island is very, very good. It's always been grass-fed. Well, they want to take beef from Apollo Bay from the port. There's not sufficiently big enough port, but they wanted to take the cattle from Apollo Bay to King Island and fatten them up on grass and then sell them as grass-fed beef. That's how the beef producers know the premium that we're prepared to pay for high quality grass-fed or pasture-fed beef. And the pastures should be looked after holistically as well. We talk about restorative. ⁓ It's so important Adam, think. Sorry, I'm just trying to get your picture back up again. Don't know what's happened.

speaker-0: You're a good technical day today, aren't you? ⁓

speaker-1: We are, very much. That grows all food should come off clean soil. It should come off soil that's been nourished with compost and organic matter that is recycled. It should come off soil that hasn't been tilled or hasn't been plowed up constantly because the plowing and the soils. changes the very fine water channels and other pathways in the soil and that upsets its microbiome and the microbiome in the soil is absolutely critical. We need to have growing plants in the soil constantly and the use of just slightly trampled soil is fine with cattle on it. We need to have crops that are grown with companion planting so that we are not stuck with just monoculture. The soils upon which Monoculture, when I talk about monoculture, talk about barley, wheat, rye oats. These broad acre ⁓ crops that are grown ⁓ year after year after year, that soil is slowly being degraded and we are ending up with new deserts being created because of the over cultivation. These soils need to be looked after. Even just planting some hemp will increase your wheat crop the next year. You don't have to wheat crop after wheat crop after wheat crop. grow some hemp and hemp is a very good it's one of the most versatile plants that you could imagine.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, interesting though, isn't it just what, you know, good health comes from the ground up, not just in us, but also from the animals we eat.

speaker-1: I mean I've got a book that's around somewhere, it's called From Soil to Psyche, From the Soil to the Psyche. What's grown in the soil has an effect on our psyche.

speaker-0: So we really need to know our butchers. We need to know our farmers ideally, but if you don't know the farmer, know the butcher.

speaker-1: My son's very lucky, he's living up in the country at the foot of ⁓ the Elfs. He knows his butcher, he knows his winemaker, he knows his vegetable grower, he knows everybody up there. We can't all be in that very fortunate situation, but we can support the local markets and that's very, very important.

speaker-0: That's it. Most of us have that opportunity to, you know, find a farmer's market or make those connections. It does, it takes a bit more effort and it's not as convenient as getting a Woolies delivery or whatever, but you know, it is doable for most, for a lot of people. Coming back to soil and grains, it's sort of looping back to this food pyramid idea that have we, you know, I remember growing up thinking, right, you got to, we used to be so hungry all the time because we were doing so much sport that at one point I was eating 30 wheat bix a day as a kid, which was like giving me more calories because I was doing so much exercise. But realizing, looking back, I was always hungry because that, that, was just literally empty calories. seems like, now that that, ⁓ the grain production methods have changed. my understanding is, know, there's so much more chemicals involved in the production of grains, things like we'd fix and I shouldn't say the brand name, but those types of products. What's, ⁓ do we, do we, we're used to giving our kids sandwiches and cereal as a sort of base. Is that out the window now with this sort of new food guidelines and what is wrong with grains as a, as a category and what's right with them? They've been around a long time and we've kind of, you know, lived on bread seemingly forever as a species. What's the truth behind that? What should we know about it?

speaker-1: I'll give you a little case example. A friend of mine was working in Melbourne. She's Argentinian and she was always complaining of illness and her skin was no good. And she goes back to Argentina and then to Italy and she's eating pasta and eating bread and her skin is cleared up and she's well. So it's not necessarily wheat by itself that is the culprit. It's the way it's handled. It's the way it's grown. It's what it's grown with. So there's so many interventions in this country with regard to wheat. and it's processing. They use chemicals on the ground, they use chemicals on the plant itself. The use of chemicals during the processing of the wheat is also a factor. So the more crude the production methods, the more likelihood of the wheat being okay for us. So I think we've got to look for the sources of the wheat and the grain because, you know, I can't say no bread. I mean, we have bread here. but we don't have very large quantities of it. We have a lot of rice, which is very good. We have brown rice, we have white rice, we have a lot of beans, and these are all filling foods and they've all got good ⁓ levels of nourishment in them. So you need to think outside the box when it comes to consumption of carbohydrate and make sure the carbohydrate is complex. I mean, we have a lot of potatoes, but we, I'm saying a lot of potatoes, we have potatoes on a fairly regular basis. We mash them, we... mash them with butter, we mash them with garlic, we mash them with onions, we mash, you know, we, you can, you can do a lot with, ⁓ with potato, but you don't want to eat a lot of potato. You have a portion and that's, that should be enough because it's got protein with it. Then the protein will fill you up. The protein tells our ghrelin and our other hormones in the, in the, in the system. that we've had enough to eat and it switches off our appetite fairly quickly. Whereas you can eat as much porridge as you like and then come back and wharf. ⁓ I mean, I should not porridge because if it's high quality porridge, it lasts longer than some of the instant porridges. But look, it's not easy for anybody to make changes, but I'm saying let's just do one thing at a time. No sugar, sugar is out.

speaker-0: Yeah, hungry Tim in his LIDAR.

speaker-1: eliminates a lot of processed foods, then you can start cutting out the other things as well.

speaker-0: Come back to fat scene is it my honest, Mrs. Bigger, come back to that week, week picks conversation. I've realized that my body, I run much better on high fat, a higher fat diet, which was entirely the opposite of what we were told as kids is good for us. You know, like it was super low fat. Even if it, now I was a kid, we were on the pretty can die. Cause my dad had some health stuff going on, which, you know, that was supposed to be the good thing to do until, pretty can died to died at 40 or something as a, um, you know, But what's the new thinking around fats and are all fats created equal? Cause I think this is the biggest confusion point for lot of, especially as parents are trying to feed our kids good food and we go, we'll avoid fat. But is that true in every case?

speaker-1: No, it's not. two and a half times, almost two and a half times more energy in every fat molecule than there is in any carbohydrate molecule. So fat is very good for us. And fat is not converted to fat in our body and it's not converted to cholesterol in our arteries. Fat is utilized as it's a triglyceride fat. You've got the glycerol and the triglycerides and they are used as food energy sources by the mitochondria in our system. So fat is not converted to fat. It's sugars that are converted to fat. It's been a marketing campaign by the seed oil manufacturers that margarine is better than butter. Margarine is highly, highly toxic to humans. It's not a natural substance. It's made up of seed oils and the seed oils are not good for us. The butter is a far healthier fat than any margarine and we use it a lot in our cooking. in our vegetables, our mashers, know, frying and so on. The other fats are oils. mean, the saturated fats that I'm talking about coming from animal fats, the other fats that I'm talking about that are healthy for us. ⁓

speaker-0: ⁓ Tallow, Lard, and Guy, presumably, things like that. Yep. And what are the bad facts that we should be avoiding altogether?

speaker-1: Well, the bad fats of the Omega 6s, the seed oils in particular, fish, safflower oil, sunflower oil, and so on. Yeah, the seed oil that's not only a true seed oil, but it's a ⁓ very healthy oil is olive oil. I think olive oil is ⁓ extra virgin olive oil is very good for cooking, but it's good for just, you know, pouring over your salads, pouring over all of your food. It's a brilliant oil. It contains omega-3, it contains a bit of omega-6, it contains some omega-9 as well. the omega-3 is of course important in the cardiovascular system, for cardiovascular health, it's important for the immune system as well. The omega-9 in olive oil is also important for the nervous system. Omega-9 plays an important role in the myelin sheath and the integrity of the nervous system. So all of these things used over a long period of time protect our... arteries, protect our nerves, protect our brain, protect the immune cells and stop the ongoing process of inflammation that's caused by the omega-6.

speaker-0: Yeah, which, and I just want to point out, cause I was kind of switched onto this in the last couple of years and realized that that means pretty much every, every counter meal at the local tavern or, you know, takeaway food is almost entirely done in seed oil. So it's hot chips, parmies, you know, like it's, it's rules out a lot of foods that we kind of got used to, but they are all made and it's cooked in seed oil. think in the U S they're even trying now to a lot of States are pushing to have, you know, potato. chips and things fried in tallow instead. So, you know, it's a really good thing to switch onto is, realizing how prevalent those seed oils are in our day to day foods and every kind of processed food is normally full of seed oil as well. it? Yeah. So there's a, there's an inbuilt, ⁓ you know, just chopping that out alone, I think can change, change a lot of health outcomes from what I've seen.

speaker-1: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

speaker-0: Look, you let's move on because I want to ask you a little bit about a common question I get asked by our audience, is, you know, how do we trust even what's happened in the last few years around what we talked about in the beginning, the COVID response from the medical profession and how we were, a lot of us in this community feel fairly hoodwinked or, or conned by what happened or at least gaslighted or whatever the word was, but we weren't, we weren't given properly informed choice. weren't really told the truth of what was going on. You pointed out very early in the piece Ian that things like vitamin D, vitamin C and zinc absolutely play a huge role in immune health and 99 % of cases for kids, it's more than enough for us to be doing that without having to look at vaccines. So there's all these things we could have done, which was hidden. Doctors were kind of gagged in the period of COVID and, you know, in many cases didn't give us the right advice and our audience, lot of parents. I think quite reasonably so, very untrusting or distrusting of the medical profession now. Do you see that as well? And how should we be approaching that? Because at some point we're going to need a medical intervention with something. Unfortunately, it's probably the case. Who do we trust? Well, do trust? Should we trust?

speaker-1: We cannot trust the medical profession when it comes to pandemics. We should be very, very wary about trusting the doctors as we have in the past. There will be a time when we can trust them more, but it only become a time when we can trust them more when they have admitted to making a serious error and they have been held accountable. The leaders of the profession I'm talking about here, the leaders who've been made aware of the problems with COVID and the pandemic and the vaccines who did nothing, they should be held accountable. And the doctors who are aware of what they were doing and continued once they were warned of the dangers of the vaccines or they became aware of the vaccines, they need to be held accountable as well. So we don't, we should never ever put a hundred percent trust in a doctor again because of these reasons. And I say that not because of any vindictiveness, but I say it because doctors are humans as well and we can make mistakes. And we made one of the greatest errors of mankind with the COVID vaccines. until we've had a royal commission and we've been held accountable and including the authorities being held accountable, trust is something of ⁓ misnomer when it comes to my profession. We put too much trust in the profession in the past and we're being fooled by a profession who's also being fooled by an industry and the industry being the pharmaceutical industry whereby we're taught by the pharmaceutical industry to think and act in terms of disease and a drug or disease and surgery or disease and chemotherapy and whatever. But it's been like that since 90s up until the 1930s there was an innocence within the profession and we did act in the best interest of our patient. We always acted in the best interest of our patient. We had an oath called the Hippocratic Oath. that we abided by. mean, I've designed another oath for doctors to take, which is a more modern form of the Hippocratic oath, which I've together for the West Australian secession under a new healthcare system, whereby anybody who is seen to be corrupt or corruptible is held to account. They're held to account immediately. Then nobody will get away with fooling people with ⁓ a marketing story. Marketing story is always... the, well, I basically make another comment that is quite common and that's don't let science or good science get in way of a good marketing story because the marketing story has been the way that all of these things have been carried through to the medical profession and doctors are naive. They're not worldly wise. They are trained. in a system where they do six years in primary school and six years in secondary school, I've said this many times, six years at university and then another six years to become a specialist. By the time you're 35, you're out there ready to practice, but you've really not experienced very much in the outside world. And most of the teaching that you receive is about disease and drone. And it's the first thing you should do as a physician is look at the patient and listen to the patient. because the patient will tell you what the problem is most of the time. And you can also get some idea if you are well trained into what sort of things they need to do that will alleviate their problems that put them on a track whereby they can heal themselves. you know, what about the cancer patient who comes to see you, who's got a grade four tumor? Well, the same thing applies, only they need a lot of guidance. So this is what I'm talking about with the new healthcare system whereby we have the primary care physician, the general practitioner. We have the hospital, the tertiary situation. We have in the middle, a health hub where people who need to be encouraged along a lifestyle approach can go and get the right advice before they get sick enough to end up in hospital. And those who are in hospital, rather than coming out, going back to see the GP and then back into hospital backwards and forwards, revolving door syndrome, they go to the intermediate health hub and they made healthier so they can become a healthy individual and not end up in hospital again. And I mean, it's a very, very simple concept, but behind it is a very, very highly sophisticated system of helping the people to get healthy. ⁓ that's a system.

speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. ⁓ well, I just, I'm just want to point out the enormity of what, you you're speaking your truth around this, around whether we should trust doctors, but I just want to. Holler at the enormity of you saying that the gravitas of it, you know, coming, you're, you're very well esteemed to your profession. You've been on a lot of platforms on a lot of boards and a lot of, ⁓ you know, you've been a leader in the industry, in the industry, in the profession for a lifetime. And here you are. throwing people under a bus for something they haven't done correctly. So I just want to just, you know, hold that moment from, just point that out. think it's, it's incredibly refreshingly honest and courageous of you to do so because it would, I think we're all sick of hearing doctors hiding behind excuses and not speaking the truth and so on. So just, you know, I don't know, just want to hold the moment, point that out because.

speaker-1: I mean, thanks Adam. I I'm being very harsh on my profession and they deserve it and they can't get away with it. But trust will come back. There will be people who will hold a high level of trust for doctors and that's a good thing, providing they know how to ask the right questions and put the doctors, know, put some heat on the doctors to ensure that they know what they're talking about. They're telling the truth and that there is informed consent. We need to have, we need to go back to the... to the time of the second world war and the Nuremberg trials when informed consent became a very, very important part of human treatment. That you need to have informed consent, informed refusal and the option. But we need doctors who are trained in the options. We need to have, we need to have doctors who are like natural therapists who can offer you something natural as well as a drug or something natural. instead of a drug and if we can retrain doctors and that's what RFK junior is doing in the US. He's saying that if a medical school wants funding they need to have training nutrition.

speaker-0: Yeah, I know. Isn't that amazing? And look, just, I'll point this out. was aware of this. Please comment if I'm incorrect. As I was a business coach helping natural health practitioners and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, shift towards a more integrative model, which reflects what you mentioned about the health hub, about doctors who would actually look at a patient's history, look at their behavior, look at their lifestyle and spend more time with them to figure out, how can we make some longer term adjustments without just simply giving people a script and a pill and off you go. And the most incredible thing I realized happened as they made those shifts. Well, two things happened. One was actually there's three. One was the doctors actually enjoyed their job more. That was really important. The doctors actually went actually feel like I'm doing some medicine that, that matters and actually has an outcome. Second of all, the patients got better or improved more and reported far better. Um, you know, they felt listened to for starters, which is a big one. And secondly, they get better results. Thirdly, the doctors got red flagged by Medicare for spending too long with patients and they were actively discouraged from doing so. Is that your experience also? Is that true? Yeah.

speaker-1: Well, it is true, very, very true because if you're seeing a patient every 10 minutes, it's a prescription every 10 minutes. It the wheels of the industry turning. If you're seeing a patient for an hour, that's, and you may not prescribe something that's a, that's a big no-no and the wheels of industry don't turn. They've got their graphs of their growth and what they expect, whether it's drugs for, sorry, in the US drugs for Crohn's disease going. you know, 30 to 50 years ahead and how big the hospitals are going to have to be for Crohn's disease. I mean, it's just incredible that the attacks on us for doing long consultations and not prescribing medications have been horrific. The doctors who are still doing integrative nutritional medicine, complementary medicine and doing this sort of work do it quietly and They keep their heads low. ⁓ don't speak about what they're doing very much because they don't want to be caught. But I got away with it because I ended up in the Supreme Court fighting the Medical Board of Victoria and I won and they were embarrassed and they had to do something about that. So they've hidden my case. So you can't see my case in the archives of the Medical Board establishment because ⁓ it was so embarrassing for them. And the Supreme Court... judge was very critical of the way they behaved towards me, simply because I was prescribing vitamins and minerals for HIV AIDS patients and keeping them alive far longer and healthier than what the drugs were doing. I mean, that takes me back to the days of Anthony Fauci and his AZT and his refusal to prescribe normal antibiotics for HIV patients. it goes with everything.

speaker-0: You touch on that just for those listening to Avanuth. I know this story, but this was back in the 80s, I believe.

speaker-1: Yes, it was in the early 80s with the advent of the HIV AIDS virus and I was approached by a person who had come from the US to help him with his HIV AIDS. He had Kaposi's sarcoma all over his face and body and I said yes and I gave him high doses of intravenous vitamin C and some of the Kaposi's disappeared. I mean he did very, very well and a lot of other patients came to see me as well and it was a... By accident, guess, or serendipitously, the treatments I was giving for patients with a whole range of autoimmune diseases were actually working and helping patients with HIV AIDS. And as a consequence, I wrote a book about it and the book got me into trouble with the medical board and the establishment here. So they took me to court and well, they tried to strike me off for advertising. They accused me of advertising because I wrote a book. They tried to strike me off and the Supreme Court judge, late Justice Gobbo, very nice man, found in my favour and awarded the costs against the medical board. the medical board after that for 20 years or so, they stopped harassing me. They had been harassing me and there was no more visits, no more notifications from them. That was before the days of APRA as well.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's a, so you're no stranger to this controversy in this space. You'd be happy to take the machine, take the man on, take the machine on when necessary, which I applaud you for. What was the Fauci connection there? He was the one, Anthony Fauci was the one promoting AZT, but hiding, squashing the other alternatives.

speaker-1: Yes, he was. was very, very heavily promoting the AZT, which was killing them. It's very similar to the COVID story. And he denied them the ordinary antibiotic was going to stop the chest infections. They were getting chest infections and that would be the start of a spiral downhill with their immune system. I mean, I remember one patient was in a hospital and he had to PCP, Pneumocystis Greenii Pneumonia, which was a severe pneumonia that would kill an HIV AIDS patient. And he came to see me and we got him over his first case of Pneumocystis. And then he ended up with another shot of Pneumocystis. They said they were surprised that he got over the first episode of Pneumocystis. And he came back again, had a few more shots and was over it. And he had a third attack of Pneumocystis. I mean, this was unheard of, but when I went to our to about what I was doing to the doctors at Fairfield Infectious Diseases Hospital. I was laughing.

speaker-0: It's um, so you've seen this happen in your profession, you know, in generations now it's, it's really worth coming back to just remembering that for us that, you know, doctors, just cause you got a white coat doesn't make you, doesn't make you smarter than the next person in every regard of life. You don't need more educated, but it's a good, it's a good thing about, think it's good reminder as I'm talking for all of us, think to be, take our power back a bit with this and go, look, you know, Oh, I'm going to. I'm going to ask you for advice, but I'm also not going to completely ⁓ give my opinion over entirely to you. I'm going to take it as an opinion and act on intuition as well as opinion and other research potentially.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, mean always do your research no matter what and I think that the message I've got is don't let anybody inject anything that's foreign into your system unless it's needed for life saver and that's a good thing to go by. Don't let anybody inject or don't even ingest anything that's foreign, it's not natural, you cannot identify because there's always in nature an answer to your problem whether it be hypertension, cholesterol, there's always in nature a way of handling things. The only real acute emergencies that I will treat as an emergency is if somebody is choking to death or they're bleeding to death.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, at which point we're very grateful for the hospital system and all those things, of course. Just, just one thing I want to throw this in, Ian, because it was just a quick one, but one thing coming back to that idea of that, what we used to call seven minute medicine, that the doctors sort of business model, if you like, you know, the churn and burns prescription, here you go, off you go. Which was what it was, it was numbers, you know, I could see it. And the irony was that the doctors themselves, was almost uniformly miserable doing that. They really weren't very happy doing it. most of them wanted to come and join your college, them and become, you know, do the medicine they cared about.

speaker-1: And it's the medicine of the future too, Adam. mean, it's, the college is thriving and we've opened it up to other health care professionals as well. it's.

speaker-0: That was the irony was, just sort of come back to the, it's two things. The irony was there's a whole profession, you know, not grew up around it, like naturopaths and all the other natural healers were, who people I was mainly dealing with and helping as a business coach, the patients that were getting lapped down by the GPs and land in the lap of the naturopath, who would then do the health hub medicine that you spoke about. that it's almost like, you know, acne was almost trying to catch it, getting doctors up to speed with what was already happening in the natural space. But interestingly too, and this is just a good tip as people, cause I want to give people this takeaway of where to, you know, how do we find a good doctor and where do we go and how do we trust doctors? One of the things that I ended up realizing is if doctors had to be on the Medicare system, in other words, if bulk billing was part of their practice, their business model, they couldn't, they really couldn't do the medicine, the acronym type medicine, the, ⁓ you know, full integrative approach. So the ones, a lot of the doctors I work with, we said, look, why don't we just deregister from Medicare and therefore the fee, patient fee went up, but so did the time, the care and the outcomes, the patient outcomes. So it's, it's not always whatever I wants to hear because we think medicine should be free in this country, but you know, maybe to find a doctor that is actually worthy of, you know, you're investing for your family's health and listening to, we need to be okay with. you know, spending that extra money for the console, not getting the bulk billing refund, discount, whatever. ⁓ and realizing that, you know, that's a step outside of the system is.

speaker-1: Yeah. I agree with you, Adam. If you stay within the system, you're going to get punished. you work outside the system, both with your doctor and the patient, then you can have a far better outcome, providing the doctor knows what they're talking about. And they're working as an integrated team with a natural therapist and other people who are healthcare providers. It's very, very important that we see a new system. And that's why I'm very much behind the system that I've given to the West Australian Secession Group. because they have the knowledge and the understanding that we're talking about in terms of the health hubs and making people healthy again, make Australia healthy again. I mean, it's not just America that needs to be made healthy again, but Australia. this is, mean, we're well in front with regard to what we're doing here in terms of training doctors and ACNHM because there's no other college like ACNHM anywhere in the world. mean, there's bits and pieces like, but they're all private and training organizations in the US. Some of them have succeeded, some of them have come and gone. There's no national group like the Australasian College of Nutrition and Environmental Medicine. I think we are really, really moving forward with the therapies, providing that doctors are left alone from being persecuted by APRA. APRA has been a real negative with regard to health in the country. They don't know what they're doing. They admit that they don't know what they're doing. They admit that they don't have any doctors trained in nutritional and environmental medicine on their cases. The doctor, I mean, I've got doctor friends who are in trouble with the APRA and it's unfair that a doctor who's probably the best in integrative oncology that is treating cancer patients is being supervised by a doctor half his age who's got no qualifications in what he's doing and the doctor who's supervising the doctor in trouble. realizes that he's saving patients lives and starts referring patients to him. How's that? We're going through a period of time where everything is bizarre and this is a very bizarre story.

speaker-0: But like you said, and I think what I'm also aware of as you're speaking is, as you said, you know, this was happening in the eighties, you know, and so it's not new. It's just probably we're becoming aware of it, right? You know, this is sort of the, you know, this top-down approach and it doesn't, I abdicating trust is probably the worst, know, abdicating responsibility over to someone who says they've got a qualification is probably the biggest thing under question and we didn't have an equal say in it.

speaker-1: You're right there, Adam. I also, I mean, I was, I was at the start of this transition and we've, we've moved in further down the line. And I think that the transitions probably coming hopefully towards the end stage where integrative healthcare is part of everybody's thinking. When I started, there were four vitamins in health, in, in the, in the pharmacy, the gold cost of some sort, know, very rare. Now look at pharmacy.

speaker-0: Yeah. There's a whole island woollies ⁓

speaker-1: It's becoming a norm. mean vitamins, we just talk about vitamins with so many other nutraceuticals that are valuable as long as people know how to use them.

speaker-0: Yeah. It's also, you know what it occurs to me also though, we talk about nutrition in food as we first began this conversation. As the nutrients in food have plummeted, you know, like it's food quality goes down and down and down. There's a whole industry rises up to fill the gap in the, you know, like we've got this old nutrient industry that wouldn't have been needed a hundred years ago because the food system was real.

speaker-1: Well, yeah, look, you might have a bit of an argument there. mean, ⁓ look, there was certain, there was certain truth in it. Yes, absolutely. But I don't think it's, I think it's, it's probably don't take me wrong, but I think it's a bit simplistic.

speaker-0: That doesn't, is not the case. That's the way my brain processes things. But yeah, no, it's a broad stroke argument. I know. I've just seen that, you know, this escalation of vitamins and things come in. At the same time, our food system seems to be getting worse and worse. Where's the surprise there? I'm really conscious of our time here because we've gone, we could keep going and going, but maybe if you're open to it, the succession conversation, maybe secession, succession, secession.

speaker-1: The session is.

speaker-0: If you're open to it, I'd to have it with you separately, maybe in another time in more depth. that's open to that, of skim over it.

speaker-1: I mean, I'm not the expert on in the secession. mean, I'm across all of the issues, but you might like to interview Julian Gillespie and Gigi Foster. mean, I can talk about the health side of things, but they're more on the constitution and the legal ⁓ aspect of it and the economics of it. Gigi Foster, of course, is talking about the economics and Julian's very much across the ⁓ legalistic side of it. He's a lawyer, but I'd be happy to join you with. That would be.

speaker-0: That would be great. I'm very intrigued to get to know more on it rather than not skim over it. But I do want to ask you this as a, um, surprise question at the end, you're like, uh, just to wrap this up and that is as someone who is a pioneer, think you'd have even this conversation you've highlighted things I didn't know about in terms of the way you've, you know, forged ahead and created new models. You've created new institutions. You've created new solutions in a, in a very, you know, And in particularly in the industry, like, or a profession, not an industry of medicine, is pretty traditional and doesn't like to change much. You've really broken the mold and you've spoken up at critical times and taken on the system. And yet you've, you know, you're composed, you're level-headed, you're intelligent, standing on a, um, on the desk, shouting at people the way I would do it. We need more of this, you know, there's any disagreement right now that in Australia right now and probably around the world, but. We need more intelligent, smart leaders who are prepared to take on the system, prepared to make changes and prepared to speak up. What are your thoughts around leadership and being a pioneer and what can, you know, those who will follow in your footsteps, ideally learn from your journey so far? What advice would you give?

speaker-1: I think it's very simple, Adam, it's to have the courage to speak the truth to power because without that there is no other value and you've got to learn how to speak the truth and not upset the people who you're directing at that. So you create a very, very narrow pathway because you could slip off one side or the other and be regarded either as a radical or a fool. And, know, it's very easy for me to say, speak the truth to power, but you have to. And the other thing, Adam, is to ensure that you've got a group of people behind you, good people who agree with you or agree with the majority of what you're saying, who have the same understanding and the same philosophy. And I had a good, very good group of people. behind me with the board of BACNN, many, many years, and we just grew and we grew and we grew. And I mean, I can speak the truth to power now and I'm speaking on behalf of a large number of people. They may not realize it. They may not have given me permission to, but I'm speaking on behalf of a lot of people now and I'll continue to do so. Yes, you will be attacked. You will be hounded. You could end up losing something. I mean, I lost a lot during my career, but I've also gained a lot. And what you lose, you have to say goodbye to and what you gain, you welcome with open arms. And it's, it's a very, very exciting and lightning and dangerous position that you find yourself in. But I sleep well at night. I'm relatively healthy. I'm 80 next month. You know, I'm probably gaining a bit more courage to speak more of the truth now, because what can they do to me? They can't. They can't do very much, although I mean they can make up stories. They can say I've avoided text or something like that, which they do with the bootleggers in the US. It's just, there's so many people now wanting an answer. They want answers to so many different things, Adam. And I've got a few of the answers and I try to tie in. the economics and the politics of what I'm talking about so it makes more sense to people that we need to move and we need to move forward, we need to move, we need another, we need to create a nation that is self-sufficient, we need to create a nation of people who know how to win, people who know how to do things, people who know how to relate to one another and we need to have ⁓ a proper democracy. whereby I can go to my local member and say I need this or I need that or I don't want to do this and I don't want to do that and that will be the law and I don't have to curtail myself to any central forces coming out of Canberra or coming out of Spring Street in Melbourne.

speaker-0: That's a great vision and I couldn't agree with it more. And I just really do appreciate everything you've done to inspire so many people around you to along this path. And I mean, that's what I say. I look at nearly 80 and I'm in, man, that's a life well lived. And I can see, you know, just by your demeanor, that's the case. I'm always big on, there's a lot of guys, I think my age now, I'm in my fifties and a lot of us are looking for the. You know, the elders, the wise elders of the village and yeah, we certainly found one in you. So I think I appreciate you sharing that with us. Yeah. And for everything you've done.

speaker-1: Thanks very much Adam. It's a lovely compliment and I'll keep doing it for you and everybody else.

speaker-0: support here. A lot of support here with the Parents with Questions team. can tell you that. And thank you again, and thank you so much for your time.

speaker-1: You're welcome, man.