Erin Rhoads: Welcome back to Murder Not Murdering with Erin and... Dr. Spillsbury knew his theory was possible because of a very unorthodox experiment. D.I. Neal filled one of the tubs with water and they hired numerous female swimmers to sit in it. With the prosecuting attorney watching, D.I. Neal suddenly grabbed the woman's ankles and submerged her underwater to immediate and horrific effect. She was shocked. The Times, June 1915 reported,

Autumn: Autumn.

Erin Rhoads: So Autumn, we all need the update.

Autumn: I did not call. I did not go back. I truthfully have no idea still why she did that. So it's still a mystery.

Erin Rhoads: Again, we're just so you all know, we're talking about the AM PM saga of last week when Autumn went to go get a Gatorade, a special deal on Gatorade. And for some reason, the lady that was working at the store, assume working at the store, followed her out and then yelled at her that she's never allowed to come back. were carried out which showed that a woman could be suddenly seized and held beneath the water in such a manner as to leave no marks of violence. The bath, a sanctuary of relaxation, became a weapon. Dr. said, death would be rapid and there would be little or no sign of struggle.

Autumn: Yeah, it was so strange. I still have no idea.

Erin Rhoads: I really hope, I feel like your picture's up, like on their wall or something.

Autumn: I don't have any idea what I mean there could be no reason if they had video footage they would see I definitely have never stolen anything in my entire life and that I paid for it

Erin Rhoads: George Smith testified, my wife's just met in unfortunate accident.

Autumn: Okay, sir.

Erin Rhoads: Well, the other thing that Tim brought up when we were talking about it, because he listened to the episode, was that I wonder since that lady was in such a rush before you, if maybe she actually stole something and they thought it was you because she was in such a rush to get out of there. He never deviated from this. All three wives somehow had unfortunate accidents, which I'm sorry is way more than coincidental. Each woman was insured. Each one was found in a bath and each had been married to George Smith under a different name. There is a pattern of evidence. The judge reported, you must consider whether these repeated occurrences can be reasonably explained by accident.

Autumn: ⁓ that could be.

Erin Rhoads: And then they just thought, ⁓ it must have been you because you were right behind her. I don't know. I don't know.

Autumn: Yeah, that could be. mean, I definitely wasn't in a rush. Justin was playing on his phone. literally was like, why are we still sitting here? Here we are.

Erin Rhoads: And that's the question. The jury deliberated about 20 minutes until they found George Joseph Smith guilty on July 1, 1915. He was hanged on August 13, 1915 with no confession and still clinging to his innocence. Dr. Spillsbury was knighted in 1923 and for the remainder of his life, Yeah, there you are. Also, just to the Gatorade company, if you would like to sponsor Autumn, feel free to slide into our DMs, because she needs a deal on those zeros or she's going to lose it.

Autumn: I do. I do. I'm Gatorade Zero's biggest fan.

Erin Rhoads: She can't find them anywhere in that deal. So, Jess, if you want to send her some free ones, please, for the love of God, somebody send Autumn Gatorade Zeros. was esteemed as one of the most distinguished figures in forensic medicine. Detective Inspector Arthur Neal became one of the most famous detectives at Scotland Yard in the early 20th century, joining the group of esteemed detectives known as the Big Five.

Autumn: You where if you work at that AMPM, if you can tell me why that lady stared into my soul and told me never to come back, I'm very sad.

Erin Rhoads: Yeah. Well, that's the update that we have on that because, you know, we all were waiting to find out. I followed up right away. I was like, did you call? Did you find out? No.

Autumn: I did not. I am not usually one to be afraid of confrontation, but I also am not a huge fan of it. So I think I just didn't want to call and cause problems.

Erin Rhoads: he started at the Metropolitan Police in 1888. He served for 40 years, retiring in 1928. Lastly, there's Edith, one of the only women married to George when he went by his real name and the one he always came back to. It is believed You are the problem.

Autumn: I felt like I was the problem, and I mean this woman, I don't want her to lose her job if she's not well, I mean...

Erin Rhoads: that she may have been the only one that he cared about, ish, in his own way, I guess. He wrote her a letter days before his execution. He always came in and out of her life, disappearing for months, returning with money. He explained his absences always by claiming he was traveling for business, and the two moved around England constantly throughout their marriage. Now this one you're going to like. if she even works there.

Autumn: I'm positive she worked there. It would be even weirder if she didn't because she was cleaning the coffee like soda stations when I walked in. If she didn't and she just cleans for funsies and they let her yell at customers, that would be even stranger. You, truthfully, I don't know.

Erin Rhoads: just sayin'. You never know. Because for a time, Edith and George ran an antique shop on Bath Road. irony of that. So I don't know if you've been watching the same news I have, but there was an article that came out, I think in People magazine or something of that, talking about Duffy. Do you remember the singer Duffy? You know, she had that song Mercy that was really popular. I'm begging you for mercy. Why won't you release me? Anyway, she like disappeared years ago.

Autumn: Mm-hmm

Erin Rhoads: Edith testified for the prosecution at Georgia's trial. In addition to recounting her lonely nomadic life, she was questioned extensively about the baths in their homes and apartments and whether her husband was given to often altering his appearance or bathing frequently. At the trial, she said this, and this is a little chilling. After Christmas 1914, we were living in apartments at Kensington Avenue.

Autumn: Okay, I know that song. Yeah. What? ⁓

Erin Rhoads: Hold on. Hold on. Let me get to it So she disappeared years ago from the music scene, but the reason why is because she would know autumn it's because she was kidnapped She was kidnapped and raped and this whole whole ordeal happened and then she didn't feel comfortable going back to You know being a celebrity or in the music scene. So I've been thinking Apparently there's a documentary that's gonna be coming out on Disney Plus

Autumn: ⁓ okay. What?

Erin Rhoads: in Bristol and I said I was going to have a bath. He said in that bath there I should advise you to be careful of those things it is known that women have often lost their lives through weak hearts or fainting in the bath. How ⁓ That she's going to talk about everything that happened and I was thinking about doing that case It's out of my time period, but I love her music I used to have it as my I used to have ⁓ one of her songs as my ringtone for years so I don't know if you guys are interested. Let me know because I think that I want to cover that case ⁓ But and I want but I first I want to see the documentary so I make sure that if there's any newer facts or anything like that and

Autumn: A thousand percent. What the hell?

Erin Rhoads: Can you imagine how upsetting when Edith finds out that he has killed three women in the bathtub and he said that to her? I cannot. George Joseph Smith was a vicious predator of women, and he counted on silence on the women who couldn't speak, and the lives that wouldn't be questioned. But the pattern spoke for them. And in the end, it said everything.

Autumn: No.

Erin Rhoads: you're getting to hear it directly from her. So I'm kind of looking forward to getting the full scoop on what actually happened because she has not spoken about it at all. My sources include contemporary reporting from the Times of London, June through August 1915, coverage from the Daily Mail and the Daily Mirror during the trial of George Joseph Smith, regional reporting from the Kentish Gazette and the Blackpool Gazette on the deaths of Beatrice Mundy and Alice Burnham, trial reporting and forensic testimony from Bernard Spillsbury, and archival legal histories and the case reviews of the Brides in the Bath murders.

Autumn: That's wild. I had no idea.

Erin Rhoads: I know. so her song Warwick Avenue is like one of always been in my like playlists. I love it. So I don't know. just I'm so curious to find out the full story.

Autumn: Yeah, that's interesting.

Erin Rhoads: I know. I thought I'd bring that up just because, you know, sometimes I feel like when a newer documentary comes out, everybody watches it and then it's like, why cover the case? But, you know, not everybody has Disney Plus. So we'll see. I've just been playing around with the idea.

Autumn: What a piece of shit.

Erin Rhoads: Right? He was married a total of eight times. He killed three of them and collected their insurance money. The other ones he just robbed and stole their things and then sold them all and then disappeared. But he was a bigamist. He only married his first wife. The rest of them were all he could just get away with making up names because, you know, we didn't have the same types of identification that we have now. So he just moved to another town, marry another person. We often within months.

Autumn: Errands of that mindset and I don't ever give a shit guys. Sorry like I'll cover Whatever the hell I want to cover even if everyone and their mom has already covered it like I don't care I'll do it myself

Erin Rhoads: No, Autumn Gives Zero F**ks. I think maybe I just overthink things sometimes.

Autumn: She does and I don't give a shit. Like I'm really sorry if that's rude, I mean, obviously I wanna know what you guys wanna hear, but if it's been covered a million trillion times and you don't wanna hear it, then just skip it. It's okay with me.

Erin Rhoads: would marry another person. One of them that he killed, he got married a month later.

Autumn: Yeah, no. Well clearly he gave no shits about these people, he just wanted their money.

Erin Rhoads: Except for Edith. Somehow he kept Edith on the back burner, kept showing back up, leaving her disappearing, coming back with a little bit of money and then disappearing again. And then to find out how chilling it is that he made a comment to her about warning her about being careful taking a bath. I mean. Yeah, it's also your take on something, right?

Autumn: Yes, it's my take on something and something that interests me and I mean, who knows? Our audience, some of the people that listen to us don't listen to a lot of true crimes. So it could be their first time that they're hearing it.

Erin Rhoads: And basically. That's true. That is true. Yeah, I don't know. I think I overthink it. I'm always like, is this too famous for me to do? And there never ones anybody ever fucking knows.

Autumn: Well, he didn't want her to die.

Erin Rhoads: You got to be careful. Sometimes women just die in bathtubs, I guess. I just can't. In the awful way of it going about it that the women were just relaxing in there. He walks in as their husband snatches their ankles, holds them up high so the water runs into their nose. They attempt to take a breath in shock and die. I mean, that is horrific. And then he just moves on to the next one. What a psychopath. Yeah. But I felt like.

Autumn: Right, like sometimes she's like, this is so famous and then I'm, I didn't even hear it. I'm like, I've never even heard of that Erin.

Erin Rhoads: Yeah. Well, on the last case, don't know if you guys saw the pictures that we posted on social media, but I just wanted to note that my uncle's in one of the photos. He was ⁓ the sheriff who was doing the press conference. And that's just kind of like a fun little fun fact. And that was on Autumn's case. So ironic that as we were going through all the photos and things to look to post, it just so happened that he was in there. Kind of crazy.

Autumn: Yeah, he gave no shits.

Erin Rhoads: But that is, as I call, a famous case. I thought, I thought, you know, I hadn't done it. I even had to look back in the archives to see if I had done it in the past because I know I've saved this several times. So I knew it was somewhere. Like, I still had pages that I had tagged. So I'm like, clearly I was going to do this at some point, but I hadn't yet. So here we are. A little hometown fun fact for you. A Aaron happy fact. Since autumn's not going to do happy facts.

Autumn: It is an Aaron Happy fact. I just can't, it's too much pressure. Too much pressure. I'd never heard of that. See, your famous cases are not really that famous.

Erin Rhoads: Good God. But anyways, this week I'm going to go first in my case, unless Autumn you have any other news or things you would like to talk about. Autumn has nothing. She wants to talk about nothing. That's fine by me. I can help you with that. Yeah, that's it. Well, I mean, this one is pretty horrific. it is kind of, it is famous in the old timey, crimey world.

Autumn: fresh out. I wanna talk about murder.

Erin Rhoads: Because he's a serial killer in the 1900s. Like if you look up serial killers in the 1900s, he'd be in the top 10. And if you haven't, I have. I have looked up all of those things. My search history is horrible.

Autumn: Hell yeah, bring it on.

Erin Rhoads: Okay, are we just jumping right in then?

Autumn: Give me it.

Erin Rhoads: ⁓ I'll give it to you. ⁓ Okay, so I am going to start us off with my case. It's been a minute since I've done a serial killer. So I figured, why the heck not?

Autumn: Hahaha I can, if anything ever happens to Destin or Josh, we're in trouble.

Erin Rhoads: I'll be like, she definitely did it. She's been talking about it for years. She never lit up a room.

Autumn: Why the heck not?

Erin Rhoads: he taking a bath? ⁓ I know, that's so censored for me, but here it is.

Autumn: Was he taking a bath? She just learned how to kill someone in a bathtub not that long ago. Let's hear it.

Erin Rhoads: I mean, we talked about it on our podcast. No, J.K., I would never throw you down the barrel there. I would I would. I care about you so much, I would help you cover up a crime. No, I wouldn't say that on air. This is Brides in the Bath. There are deaths that draw attention, violence in the open, something broken, something unmistakably wrong. And then there are deaths that do not ask to be questioned. A woman alone, a locked door, a bath drawn at the end of the day, a slip, a faint, a quiet private end. The kind of death that explains itself, that it's just an accidental tragedy.

Autumn: I would hope not. Yeah, don't be sloppy.

Erin Rhoads: No, I would incriminate both of us all of a sudden. And what's our slogan? We say we talk about murder, but we are not murderers. And that's facts. We promise. We promised. All right. Speaking of murders, Autumn, it is time for you to tell us about your case.

Autumn: We promised.

Erin Rhoads: In the early 1910s across England, these deaths began to happen not loudly, not suspiciously, but frequently. And eventually, someone noticed. A boarding house owner, a detective, and a pathologist exposed the pattern of a serial killer. George Joseph Smith was not remarkable. And that was his advantage. Born in London in ⁓ 1872, He learned early that identity could be constructed and abandoned. By his 20s, he had already committed theft, fraud, and bigamy. And speaking of bigamy, let's talk about his wives. So in 1898, under the alias George Oliver Love, he married Caroline Beatrice Thornhill, his only legal marriage.

Autumn: This is the disappearance of Angela Hammond. There are some cases that feel distant, like something that happened far away to someone you've never met. And then there are cases like this one, the kind that feel too real because this didn't happen in the middle of nowhere. It didn't happen in the dead of night with no witnesses. This happened during a phone call, a normal

Erin Rhoads: They moved to London, where she would work as a maid for a number of employers, stealing from them for her husband. Beatrice was eventually caught Worthing Sussex and was sentenced to 12 months. On her release, she incriminated her husband, and he was imprisoned January 1901 for two years. When George was released, he found that Beatrice had fled to Canada.

Autumn: everyday phone call between a young woman and the man she loved. And he heard everything. This is the story of Angela Hammond. It's April 4th, 1991 in Clinton, Missouri, a small, quiet town.

Erin Rhoads: possibly worried about retaliation from George. But wasting no time, in June 1908, George married Florence Wilson, a widow from Worthing. On July 3rd, he left her, but not before taking pounds, which would be just over $1,000 today. He ⁓ that right out of her savings account and then sold all of her belongings from their Camden Town residence in London. ⁓

Autumn: The kind of place where people don't lock their doors, where nothing like this is supposed to happen. Angela, who most people called Angie, is 20 years old. She's bright, outgoing, the kind of person people naturally gravitate toward. And her life is just beginning to take shape. She's in love, she's engaged, and she's four months pregnant. ⁓ wow. What is a winner?

Erin Rhoads: What a nice guy. Next up in his roster, we have Edith Peglar, who had replied to an advertisement for a housekeeper. married her one month later. Then he would disappear for months at a time, saying that he was going to another city to sell antiques. Even between his other marriages, George would always come back to Edith with money. Isn't he romantic?

Autumn: Everything is moving forward exactly the way it should. That night starts out normal. Angela spends the evening with her fiance, Rob Schaefer, and friends. Nothing unusual, nothing off. Later, she drops Rob off at home. They plan to meet up again. He had promised to watch his little brother. But So romantic.

Erin Rhoads: In October 1909, he married Sarah Freeman under the name George Rose Smith. He left Sarah after cleaning out her savings and selling all of her war bonds with a total take of about pounds, about $60,000 today, which is a pretty hefty sum to just snag.

Autumn: As the night goes on, she gets tired. So she decides, instead of going back out, she'll just go home. There's just one thing she needs to do first. She pulls into a grocery store parking lot and walks to a payphone. Because in 1991, that's how you call someone. Around 11 15 p.m. Angela calls Rob. I mean this man.

Erin Rhoads: Then he says, thank you next, and he moves on to Bessie Mundy. And then Alice Burnham. And in September 1914, he married Alice Reed under the alias of Charles Oliver James. In total, George entered into seven bigamous marriages between 1908 and 1914.

Autumn: At first, it's completely normal. She tells him she's tired. She just wants to go home, take a bath and go to bed. I know. I was like, oh shit, don't take the bath, Angela. But then something changes. Her tone shifts. She tells him there's a truck nearby. It's been circling the block over.

Erin Rhoads: In most of these cases, he stole and dissipated his wife's possessions before he ever disappeared out of their lives. Not a bath. now we need to start where the investigation portion begins. Detective Inspector Arthur Neal received a letter on his desk at Scotland Yard. The letter was from Joseph Crossley, a landlord from Blackpool. In it contained two newspaper clippings. The first was an article from the News of the World about a death of a newly married woman named Margaret Lofty 18th, 1914.

Autumn: and over and over again. And now it's pulled into the parking lot. She starts describing it. An older model pickup truck, green, maybe two-toned, and something very specific. There's a mural in the back window, a fish jumping out of water. And then she tells him about the driver.

Erin Rhoads: Margaret had been found drowned in her bathtub the day after her wedding to John Lloyd. The second clipping a coroner's inquest into the death of Alice Burnham in 1913. Alice had been found by her husband, George Smith, drowned in a bathtub the previous December. Crossley owned the lodgings where Alice had died.

Autumn: ⁓ A man gets out. He's disheveled, bearded, wearing glasses. And he's pretending to look for something, using a flashlight, scanning the ground. But Angela can feel it, that instinct, that something isn't right. Rob is listening, trying to reassure her.

Erin Rhoads: Both he and Alice's father had seen the report of Margaret death and immediately noticed the similarities between Alice and Margaret. They believe the two incidents were somehow connected. ⁓ Neal starts to look closer at these cases. The responding officer reported that he found Alice's husband completely unbothered by his wife's sudden death.

Autumn: trying to stay calm. But then Angela screams and the line goes dead. Rob doesn't hesitate. He drops the phone, runs out of the house, jumps into his car and he drives fast toward the payphone. And as he gets close, he sees it, a pickup truck driving away.

Erin Rhoads: next DI Neil visited the rented rooms the Smiths had been staying to see the bathtub where Alice had drowned. He said, if anyone can get drowned in a bathtub like this, looking at the very small tub, he said, it's a marvel.

Autumn: And inside, he sees Angela. She's struggling and she screams his name. Rob! He turns the car hard trying to follow. But in that moment, something goes terribly wrong. His transmission fails. And just like that, the truck disappears into the night.

Erin Rhoads: Originally, the coroner had ruled Alice Burnham and Margaret Lofty's death accidental, officially termed death by misadventure.

Autumn: ⁓ what the hell is that? and Angela is gone. I mean he even caught up to him. Are you kidding me right now? Police arrive quickly but the window is already closed. Angela is nowhere to be found. No sign of a struggle, no evidence left behind, just a payphone in an empty parking lot.

Erin Rhoads: I think it's just a catch-all. the husband's involved in both of these deaths were the same man, ⁓ DI Neal still looking at them separately, but he knew they had to be connected. In both cases, both husbands reported their wives feeling unwell in the hours before their deaths. In Margaret's death, she was married to John Lloyd. Hours before she met her demise, How haunting is that? No, that's awful.

Autumn: This case is filled with details that feel almost too specific, like they should have led somewhere. The truck, a late 1960s model, possibly green, with that distinct fish mural on the back window. The driver, described in real time while the crime was unfolding. Witnesses later say they saw a man sitting in that same truck.

Erin Rhoads: She had withdrawn all of her savings from the bank and drafted a wheel making John her sole beneficiary. Margaret's undertaker reported that John Lloyd had complained about the price of the burial and bought the cheapest coffin available. Two weeks before her death, John Lloyd also took out a life insurance policy on Margaret for 700 pounds.

Autumn: watching Angela before she was taken. And still, no one has ever been identified. Years later, investigators began to consider something chilling. What if Angela wasn't the intended target? There was another young woman in the area who looked similar.

Erin Rhoads: In Alice's case, money was also a motive. Two months before her death, George Smith had taken out a life insurance policy on her for 500 pounds. No. He had also been similarly unmoved by his new bride's sudden death, telling landlord Joseph Crossley, when they're dead, they're dead. And then he buried her in a common grave. He is not. So yeah, he was really moved. On February 1, 1915, DI Neal.

Autumn: the daughter of a police informant, someone who had received threats, even a letter postmarked the very same day Angela disappeared, suggesting that she was the one being watched and that maybe Angela Hammond was taken by mistake. And that didn't surface until 2021. When they're dead, they're dead. That's some words right there.

Erin Rhoads: finds the elusive John Lloyd on his way to collect an insurance payout from Margaret's death. That's when John Lloyd confessed that his real name was George Joseph Smith and that he was the same George Smith who had married Alice Burnham. But he maintained that he was only a very unlucky widower, but not a murderer.

Autumn: or wasn't released to the public until 2021. Imagine that for a second, you're on the phone with someone you love and you hear the moment they're taken and hear the fear in their voice. You hear them scream and then nothing. That's something you don't move on from. You just learn how to carry it. More than 30 years later,

Erin Rhoads: Wow.

Autumn: ⁓ of course not. He's so innocent.

Erin Rhoads: No. D.I. Neal arrests John Smith on the charge of making a false entry of marriage for using a false name, John Lloyd, when he married Margaret. Now George Smith is in custody, but D.I. Neal needed proof that his crimes went beyond bigamy. So he had Margaret Lofty exhumed for another autopsy. D.I. Neal's current theory was that Alice and Margaret were poisoned, not drowned.

Autumn: Angela Hammond has never been found. No arrests, no answers, just a single moment in time, frozen on a phone line, a voice that suddenly disappeared, and a question that still lingers. Was she the target? Or just in the wrong place, at the worst possible moment?

Erin Rhoads: and then staged in the bathtubs. For this to be proven, he needed the best pathologist to examine the bodies. And he found that in Bernard Spillsbury. And if you recognize that name, it's because it's in several of my cases, probably most famously in the Dr. Crippen case that I covered. So if you haven't heard that, go back and give it a listen. Margaret Lofty and Alice Burnham were both exhumed.

Autumn: If you or anyone you know has information about Angela Hammond's disappearance, you can contact the Clinton Police Department. Even the smallest detail could be the one that finally brings her home. My sources were The Charlie Project, The Doe Network, Uncovered Angela Hammond Case Overview, Unsolved Mysteries, Inside Edition,

Erin Rhoads: both women appeared to be perfectly healthy at the time of their deaths. So Dr. Spillsbury could find no evidence that either woman had been poisoned. Margaret Lofty had superficial bruises on her left arm, but other than that, there was no evidence on her. And Alice's death looked like it was nothing but an unhappy accident. The bathtubs.

Autumn: and a few community discussion boards and Reddit.

Erin Rhoads: Well, I don't know if there's a connection with that, because we don't have any fucking clues, Autumn. There's nothing to follow.

Autumn: I know, there's a couple cases that are not very long and... don't have a lot of information, but that have really stuck with me. Like that one specifically is been on Unsolved Mysteries reruns so many times and it screams, how the hell is this not solved? They're exactly right. He chased him. He saw the car. There were distinct, like distinctiveness about that specific vehicle. How does nobody come forward and be like, ⁓ my uncle drives a car like that?

Erin Rhoads: in question were both moved to London for Dr. Spillsbury to examine. ⁓ Neal digging. He finds that George had another wife die of mysterious circumstances.

Autumn: or my friend's dad or a neighbor down the road. I mean, a fish mural? How many people have one of those in the back of a green truck during that time specifically? In Missouri. In Clinton, Missouri.

Erin Rhoads: All very suspect.

Autumn: It's just tragic and her body has never been filmed.

Erin Rhoads: It's, I think that'd be one of those things that would, like I said, was super haunting. Like just knowing that your transmission failed at that exact moment would haunt you. Haunt you.

Autumn: That exact moment. And I could not even imagine what he's feeling. Like he could see her, she screamed his name for help. He, in the interviews I saw, ⁓ my gosh, they were so heartbreaking. He's like, I promised to take care of her. I gave her a ring. She was the love of my life. And I was there, she was screaming my name and I couldn't help her.

Erin Rhoads: Back in 1910, he was going by the name Henry Williams, and he married Bessie Mundy, who had a significant inheritance held in a trust. Unable to gain access to that money, George took what little she had, and he left her, because he's so great. Later, he later returned to Bessie, and in May 1912, they took rooms in Herney Bay. On July 8, 1912, That is just awful. Like that just makes, yeah, it would break my heart unless he had something to do with it. Okay. You know, you just never know.

Autumn: It broke my heart. like all these years later. No, he's been cleared completely by all by the police. You never know. No, you don't. But he he was babysitting his little brother at that time when she called and he had an alibi and witnesses saw this man in the parking lot in the grocery store parking lot. So it wasn't just his account of the phone call. There were multiple witnesses, which also makes it even more frustrating. So many people saw this.

Erin Rhoads: Bessie made her will, leaving her husband her modest fortune that she was inheriting. the very next on July 9th, George Smith bought a bathtub for their room. On July 13th, 1912, Bessie Mundy died while taking a bath. Once

Autumn: In her bedroom?

Erin Rhoads: Yeah, were small rooms. It's the 1900s.

Autumn: That's very strange. Okay, yeah. So weird. happen and this woman has never been found.

Erin Rhoads: totes norms for the time. Have you ever been in New York? Half the time those apartments have their bath right there in the living room. It's just baffling.

Autumn: I mean, secretly, and I don't know if this would be better, I don't have a theory, but I'm kind of thinking, what if this is like a J.C. Dugar kind of situation where she's alive and he's held her all these years? Which is very real possibility. Her body has never been found.

Erin Rhoads: What theories do we have?

Autumn: Super strange.

Erin Rhoads: Anyway, or Europe. Anyway, once DI Neal and Dr. Spillsbury learned about Bessie Mundy, they had her exhumed as well. and being held. I mean, you can't count it out. You can't count it out.

Autumn: No, and maybe he, mean, obviously, there's just so many possibilities, you know? And it would be nice if she was alive, but also, I don't even wanna know how much trauma she would have to unfold. She'd be like 54 years old, you know? It's like, is it worth it being alive for all those years in that kind of condition or ending the suffering?

Erin Rhoads: On her skin, Dr. Spillsbury found goosebumps, which happens, he told D.I. Neal, in some cases of sudden death and perhaps more frequently in sudden death from drowning. The bathtub that Bessie had died in was tracked down and also brought to London for examination. ⁓ copious amounts.

Autumn: momentarily after it happened. I mean, I don't know.

Erin Rhoads: But if George Smith hadn't drugged his wives and without signs pointing to a struggle, how had he killed them? Bessie Mundy was five foot seven and her bathtub was only five feet long. She had been found in death still holding her bar of soap. All three women were found on their backs with their legs straight, completely submerged. The tubs on each of them were tapered to a narrow end. I don't know. mean, I don't know. There's still life to be lived, you know? It's just, I don't know. This is so baffling. These are the kinds of cases that I absolutely despise because I always want answers. I want answers.

Autumn: Mm-hmm. I know you do. I know, I know. But the more people that hear these, hopefully, maybe there's someone that was like, dang, my creepy uncle had a fish mural in the back of his green truck back in the 90s. And he was real weird looking with a beard and glasses.

Erin Rhoads: containing only about a foot of water. Crouched in a narrow bath, if any of these women did have a seizure, Dr. Spillsbury couldn't see how they could have drowned and ended up in the positions that they were found in. They would have collapsed and faced downwards, not slid backwards, surely striking some part of their face if that were to have happened. These were narrow baths and all these women were too tall and long for these tubs. Or maybe they see a picture or something like that.

Autumn: Yeah, you just never know who you're gonna reach in these day and ages. We're coming for you old creepy men that kidnapped or old creepy women that kidnapped. There's DNA people now, so we're coming for you.

Erin Rhoads: No. I mean, truly, I feel like like we were talking about in the last episode, so many people, you know, you're just not going to get away with it forever. There is thank God people begged evidence properly to not muddy the waters with DNA, because now we have the technology to find out who you are and we'll find you through your fourth cousin, motherfucker. which were far too small. For Dr. Spillsbury, none of this adds up. George Joseph Smith's trial for the murder of Bessie Mundy, Alice Burnham, and Margaret Lofty began on June 22, 1915. All three bathtubs were brought into court as exhibits, and one spectator allegedly sat in one of the small tubs and got stuck. And that's how small these tubs were.

Autumn: Mm-hmm. Great, we'll find you through your fourth cousin once removed on Uncle Charlie's side.

Erin Rhoads: That's what I'm saying. We are coming for you, asshole. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Well, that was Autumn's frustrating case. And if you do know information, though, please do. You just never know what's going to help. What might seem insignificant to you might be something important.

Autumn: Mm-hmm, we're coming for ya. Wow.

Erin Rhoads: In a blow to the defense, the judge allowed testimony on Alice Burnham and Margaret Lofty's deaths to be given to show, as the judge phrased it, whether he had a system of murdering. Now, this was one of the earliest instances that a system was allowed to be used as a pattern in a murder trial, what we would call a modus operandi or MO, or just a pattern of killing.

Autumn: Yeah, what she said. You You never know. Right, or it might seem that somebody, you think somebody has already said to somebody and they haven't.

Erin Rhoads: Yeah, I mean, so often we see that, like in a lot of our cases, we've seen that even people have talked to police detectives and they didn't think it was important at the time. So it gets lost in paperwork or whatever. Sometimes you just never know what's going to matter. took the stand on the trial sixth day. He confessed that all three women had died in a bath, their guard down, and that George Smith had actually grabbed them by the ankles and swiftly pulled them underwater. The water rushed up the nose and into their mouths while he held the legs in the air. ⁓

Autumn: I mean the Green River Killer was interviewed multiple times and was on their suspect list and nobody knew that. So the more people that would have talked about him maybe it would have happened sooner.

Erin Rhoads: Literally. You just never know. Well, I hope that at some point we can provide an update with that case because that would be awesome. We do that as often as we can. As soon as we see something has been solved that we've covered, we will give an update for sure. If you do have a case that you're interested in or you think that we should cover on this very podcast, can slide into our DMs on Instagram, but also, ⁓ their heads were completely submerged.

Autumn: Me too.

Erin Rhoads: We have a new website through our recording ⁓ system. It's murdernotmurdering.riverside.com. And one of the things about it is you can sign up to be a subscriber. So that allows you to be able to get notifications when we release new episodes. It also has all of the places where you can find our podcast, which is Numerous places now we're on a million platforms and this is it just allows you to connect to us in that way So if you do want to keep updated, maybe think about becoming a subscriber. We're not asking for payment It's not a paid subscription or anything like that So just keeps you up to date on what's happening with us Like I said, you can always slide into our DMS ⁓ on Instagram or you can email us if you have you know, maybe a longer case or links and such and at murdernotmurdering at gmail.com. We're also on a subreddit, right, Autumn?

Autumn: Yes we are, murder not murdering.

Erin Rhoads: Autumn does the subreddit. And then we're also on TikTok, mnm.pod. So loads of ways to find out about what we're up to and what cases we're doing. ⁓ And we appreciate you all for listening to us talk about all these cases. And we were going to be back again with new episodes on Mondays. Autumn, do you have anything you want to add?

Autumn: No, just stay vigilant out there people.

Erin Rhoads: And Gatorade sent her some Gatorade zeros.

Autumn: Yeah, Gatorade Zero for life!

Erin Rhoads: for life. You heard it here first. All right, so we'll see you next week. Thank you again for listening. Bye.

Autumn: Bye!