PreserveCast: Come along with us as we explore the broad world of preservation and the work being done to preserve, interpret, and save our past in a 21st century world. From aquaculture to historic foodways to forensic modeling, we're talking weekly with experts from across the globe. This is your host, Nick Redding. Welcome to Preservecast. Did you know that the Campaign for Historic Trades, which is powered by Preservation Maryland, is the sponsor of three registered apprenticeship programs? The campaign also hosts workshops across the nation, maybe even one in your backyard. Visit HistoricTrades.org to learn more and find a way to learn a trade. This is Nick Ritting and you are once again listening to PreserveCast, thrilled to have you sitting down with us today and thrilled to be sitting here and talking to author and historian Marty Bollinger, who recently published a nearly 400 page hardcover book when Claiborne bridged the Chesapeake, the rise and fall of the fairy era. ⁓ And before we dig into that, just want to remind listeners that if you're enjoying what you're listening to, I hope you'll ⁓ rate, review, subscribe, ⁓ make sure that you're signed up. And if you're really enjoying it, ⁓ feel free, please share an episode that you've enjoyed if you're ⁓ really digging on ⁓ fairy history like we're going to talk about today then i hope you'll share this with others so that ⁓ we can bring more people to the fold we have a lot of growing listenership here on Preservecast and hope that we can grow it even further ⁓ today's topic is an interesting one because it's a topic that ⁓ obviously spans maritime history but also had a direct impact on the the building and land use and all sorts of different things that happened on the eastern shore of maryland And again, we're sitting down with Marty Bollinger and talking about his new book, When Claiborne Bridged the Chesapeake, the Rise and Fall of the Fairy Era. We're going to put a link in the show notes so that you can pick up a copy ⁓ and tip of the hat to our friends at the Maryland Center for History and Culture, who have Marty coming out to ⁓ give a talk on this and send it over to us and said this would make for a great Preservecast episode. We always love. sort of hints and tips like that and we thought the same. So it's great to have you here today. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what led you to kind of getting into the line of work that you do and maybe talk a little bit about what that line of work is. Yeah, hi Nick. I grew up in Baltimore, Baltimore, and then we moved to Hartford County when I was going to middle school. ⁓ Mostly around the Mid-Atlantic area, went to school in DC, Philadelphia. but I've lived all over the world. spent almost six years on Australia. I commuted for a couple of years to London, but all throughout that I've always been interested in anything that's on the water, any kind of boat ship. This is my fourth book on maritime and naval history. And I find that if you understand what's happening on the water, you can often figure out what's happening on the land and tell a bigger story than just the story about the ships themselves. But we moved to... That's how the locals pronounce it, not Clayborne, but Clayborne, about six, seven years ago. And I was struck by the fact that this little community is isolated. It's on the Eastern shore of Maryland, but it's on the sort of Chesapeake Bay side of the Eastern shore, right off the water off Eastern Bay, south of Kent Island, sort of across from Annapolis, if you know the geography. And what's odd about it is there is on the water a quarter mile long pier. with decaying wood pilings at the end. And I asked one of the locals, what's that about? And the answer was, well, that's where the railroad was. I'm like, what? We had a railroad here? Turns out for 40 years, if you wanted to go from say Baltimore to Ocean City, your first stop was this little village of Claver. That's where the steamer came in and where you caught the train. And then starting in the, 1919, it's where the car ferry came. And it just, the thing about it is it made no sense because we are three times as far from Annapolis as Kent Island, we're twice as far from Baltimore as Kent Island. And I've resolved to figure out why this little community, in fact, was picked four times over a of decades as the hub for cross-pay transportation. And that's what led to the research and the inquiry. Yeah, I mean, I think you've painted a good picture of kind of where it is. It is tucked away. I even, you know, sort of... ⁓ ashamedly had to ask you to make sure I knew how to pronounce it and you said no, the locals pronounce it Clayburn. ⁓ And because unless you have to go to Clayburn today, you probably wouldn't end up in Clayburn. Is that a fair assessment? Absolutely. It's off the beaten path. There's nothing here except about 70 or 80 homes. A lot of retired people live here, some watermen live here. There's no reason to go to Clayburn ⁓ anymore. But there was a time when we had hotel, a lot of inns, restaurants, couple of gas stations, shops, ⁓ two churches, schools. We had something called the Miracle House where we would take kids from Baltimore, 1920s and 30s and early 40s and bring them here in the summertime to reduce their chance of catching tuberculosis called Miracle House because no one ever got tuberculosis. So it was a really big thriving community. And then they built the Bay Bridge. And there was no need to take boats here anymore. so I mean talk to for somebody who's not familiar I mean, obviously if you live in Maryland, you'd be more familiar with this But if you're living you're you're hearing this from across the country or across the globe for that matter Explain why the the geography that kind of requires? ⁓ Either a ferry or a bridge to get to the eastern shore. How is that one state has two sides and Then maybe we can talk about the history of ferries and and and how This one community kind of sits in the middle of that story. Yeah, I mean the Chesapeake Bay almost divides Maryland in half and you know, it's the narrowest point. It's still four or five miles wide and it wasn't until the 1950s that the bridging capability was sufficient to be able to cross it by bridge. But you know, Baltimore for a long time enjoyed wide access to the Eastern Shore communities because most of those communities on the Eastern Shore connected by rivers to the bay, navigable rivers. And so when you move goods by boat, Baltimore was the center. The Chesapeake Bay is a boulevard to Baltimore by boat. Once we started moving to railroads, particularly after the Civil War, railroads are hard to cross the bay with. And so the railroads all ran north to Philadelphia. And you find all these arguments and concerns from Baltimore and Annapolis that we're about to lose connectivity to the Eastern shore. All the trade is now going to go to Philadelphia. Chesapeake Bay becomes a barrier to commerce to Baltimore in the era of railroads. And so back in 1886, some senior Maryland politicians, Speaker of the House of Delegates, President of the Senate, some others decided to build a railroad from Baltimore to Ocean City, which obviously the Bay's in the middle. The railroad was going to go through Salisbury and Easton because that's where the President of the Senate lived and where the Speaker of House of Delegates lived. And it went to Clayburn. And the reason was not logical, I in the book, it's a function of fear, greed, misjudgment and misadventure. But, you know, they had to get the trains across the Chesapeake and the answer for that was something called a rail transfer ferry. You literally move the rail cars onto a boat. The boat carries them across the bay and you pull the rail cars off. And their choice was go to Kent Island, which was closer, or go to Clayburn. The problem with Kent Island is it required three times as much money to lay the rails. It's much further by land, shorter by water. And the reality is the water is free, but the land costs money and the rails cost money and they were running out of money. That's the misadventure part. And they decided to just get to the waters quickly as they could by rail and Clayburn was the closest and also didn't hurt that two of the principal politicians involved owned land in Clayburn. started buying more land in Clayburn when this got announced. So they had a personal stake also in seeing that land develop. That's the greed part of it. Fear of Philadelphia, greed by some of the property owners. And then we get to the misadventure bit. They decided to buy these two rail ferries from Connecticut where they just built a bridge and they no longer were needed. But the primary one, the big one, the good one burned and sank on the way down. So from the very beginning, this thing was doomed to failure. And it did fail after nine months. But guess what? We had a railroad. And you're not going to move the railroad. And so for the next 40 years, people looking at decisions about where to take the steamers and where to bring the car ferries, the answer was, well, the railroad's already there. That's where we're going to go. And that's how it got its role. Yeah, think it's interesting that you say that, too, that even for people who are familiar with this area, might not be so familiar with the change that happens between the navigable rivers of the eighteenth century and the connection between the bay and the eastern shore and the western shore ⁓ and then this switch to railroads i don't think a lot of people think about how that that dynamic changes and you even see it in the in the political leadership between the eighteenth century where you know the eastern shore was very prominent to ⁓ you know this this later period where it becomes ⁓ a little bit more ⁓ disconnected from the rest of the state because of that whole railroad issue. I think that's really fascinating. ⁓ And haven't myself haven't really picked up on that. I think that ⁓ one thing that's that that might be, you know, interesting for people to understand is like, obviously, there's the railroad ferry, but there but ferries predated this as well, I presume. So how long did ferries ⁓ last on the Eastern Shore. How long were ferries going back and forth? When did they start and how long did this last for? So a little bit of terminology here. Technically a ferry is a boat or ship that carries not only cargo and people, but their further means of conveyance. So it carries a rail car, carries a horse and wagon, carries an automobile. Otherwise they're really just steamers, steamboats and ships like that. So there were all kinds of steamers operating on the Bay since around 1815. And by the Civil War, most of the communities on the water were connected by steamer. The difference with Claiborne is it was a hub where people could continue their journey by car or by train. Because the other ones, you took a steamer to Tollchester Beach, a nice amusement park, and then you stayed and you took the steamer back home. You weren't continuing your journey. It wasn't a network. So the networks really started around 1890 was the first one to Claiborne. It was one to love point the tip of Kent Island that connected to a separate train to Delaware in 1902. And they all came to an end when the Bay Bridge was built in 1952. And in fact, beforehand, the state of Maryland acquired the Claiborne Ferry Company from its investors and ran it as a state enterprise. because they knew its days were numbered. Even back in 1941, they knew a bridge would eventually emerge. So the ferry era for car ferries and train ferries, 1890 to 1952, steamers operating early 1800s all over the place, winding down after the Second World War, pretty much coming to an end with the Yeah, I think that's an interesting distinction too. I'm not sure everybody listening would pick up on that. Bit that difference between a fairy and just a steamer and sort of the continuation of travel ⁓ And I'm curious ⁓ The the whole idea of obviously ending this ⁓ You know, it's gonna put an end to boom towns like clay burn ⁓ Was was clay born ⁓ prominent in trying to prevent it, you know what? what happens as they learn that the writing's on the wall? Are their politicians opposed to it? And broadly speaking, what is the political environment on the shore? Because I know that even to this day, there are different opinions about what the bridge has wrought ⁓ on the Eastern shore. So what was the thinking at the time versus what has been since? So once the state of Maryland acquired the ferry company in Clayburn 1941, there were immediately efforts to shut down the line to Claiborne. They had created another one in 1930 to Kent Island to a place called Matta Peak. And so both were operating for that decade or so, you know, at the same time. So three times the state of Maryland tried to shut down the Claiborne ferry and each time the politicians on the Eastern shore rebelled, particularly the ones in Talbot County where Claiborne is. And they managed to push back the cancellation. First time they said is It's too expensive. We'll shut it down. And that didn't work. And then the final effort was the, well, the, the ferry work is, is unsafe. So we have to condemn it. And instead we got a new one built. So, you know, the locals did not favor the termination of the ferry system, but in the end, the traffic just didn't warrant it. Once the Mattapique route was open, everyone started taking that and Claiborne became an afterthought. So it was a gradual decline in 1938 when the cross. Bay connection ended, that's when everything starts to close. Now the community today is different. Back in the 1930s, 40s, 20s, it was largely populated by ship captains and railroad people. I mean, you look at a map of the house ownership and everyone's name is Captain this, Captain that. Now it's more of a retirement community. So I think that locals are quite comfortable with it being a quiet, calm place. We very much enjoy being on the water. You may have seen some articles recently about the ice boats that were out there on the ice during the recent freeze. Claver was the center of that activity off the same landing where the ferry used to come in. So we very much enjoy the heritage of it. But I don't think there's anyone clamoring right now for a return to a ferry, although the town logo is waiting for the second coming of the ferry. I don't see it happening. And technically, I argue it would be a fifth because there were four different ferry companies over the years. So broadly speaking was the shore opinion at the time that, I mean, they really wanted to be connected. this whole, I remember being in someone's home on the Eastern shore and there was a bumper sticker that said something to the effect of, there's no life west of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. ⁓ And I got a little chuckle out of that, but I mean, know the bridge changed the... land use trends on the shore, the bridge changed population on the shore, it changed development, it changed the way things were built, it changed the pace of life. I mean, there's no question that connecting these two places changed a lot. It left behind towns like Claiborne. It ⁓ probably was directly responsible for just the explosion of Ocean City ⁓ as a destination because now it was much easier to reach. You could reach it a few hours by car versus this sort of circuitous route with ferries and getting on and off and having to stay places and all that kind of thing. It ends places like Tolchester Beach, like you said, you know, these sort of ⁓ entertainment venues. So, I mean, was there an awareness of that going into this? you did you find that where it's like we're going to the way of life that we know today is not going to be here in 50 years? Or was it just sort of it's post World War Two, we're building, we're driving. And this is the direction we need to head. Was there any hesitancy on the part of the political class at that point? It's it's a Bifurcated, you know, one of my favorite bumper sticker I see on the eastern shore is enjoy your time here and then go home you know We there are communities that very much welcomed the development and you mentioned Ocean City as a big one and then certainly Kent Island You know which which just became incredibly developed welcome that. even to this day, there's a lot of concern about overdevelopment. Traffic is an issue. I'm retired. I can choose when I cross the Bay Bridge. I'm crossing it every week or two. ⁓ But in the summertime, you don't want to try to cross it during rush hour. You'll be stuck on Route 50 for an hour. So there's a lot of concern about that. Back at the time, though, the people on the Eastern Shore were desperate for development. It was a relatively poor place. And they saw it as a boon to the economy, particularly if you're a farmer or a waterman, you want to get your produce quickly to customers. You know, it was a great thing. And, five times over the years, arguments were made politically that if we don't do something, Philadelphia is going to take over the Eastern shore. Now, most people don't realize this, but if go back the first part of the 1800s, there was a serious concern of the Eastern shore splitting apart from Maryland and joining Delaware. And there were debates in the Maryland legislature and the debate was fairly close. ⁓ but at end of the day, that split didn't happen, but that created this fear that Baltimore and Annapolis will lose their influence on the Eastern shore. Hence the train ferry, then the car ferry, then the bridge, trying to maintain that. Like today, as I mentioned, it's very much a split view here. We don't really see the development. We're fairly isolated and like it, but, know, if you go to Kent Island, you certainly do see the effect. you know, debate about a new Bay Bridge is rekindling a lot of that debate, including whether or not we should have another ferry system instead of the Bay Bridge. Yeah, I was going to say, mean, for people, decision makers making, I mean, obviously, this is an interesting read. And again, ⁓ we'll put a link in the show notes to the book. ⁓ It's again, the title is When Clayburn Bridged the Chesapeake, the Rise and Fall of the Ferry Era. We're speaking with author and historian Marty Bollinger. ⁓ I, you know, It's it's an interesting read from a historical perspective, but it's also an interesting read I think for policymakers to kind of understand where decisions were made in the past the impact that they had and how these major infrastructure decisions which this was a piece of of Bay infrastructure at the time ⁓ directly impacts communities and and obviously I think there's a great awareness of that like you said where we have two spans over the Chesapeake Bay Bridge now And where does the third go? it sounds like now we're talking about co-locating if they can pull the money together to build this gargantuan bridge. We already have another bridge that we have to rebuild in Baltimore, the Key Bridge. And so the idea of building yet another bridge is kind of, it seems even more, I don't want to say far-fetched, but even more challenging than it did when we were just talking about building another Bay Bridge. ⁓ Now the idea of building two giant bridges ⁓ in a small state like Maryland. ⁓ is would be a big task. These infrastructure projects are not easy. And I mean, you kind of alluded to it. They tried several times to build a bridge. The bridges that we ended up with in the 50s were not the first attempt, not that they couldn't physically do it, but the funding, the financing, the steam kind of ran out. Is that right? Well, yes and no. were three efforts to build a bridge. you know, by the way, the route that the bridge sits on now was not the route that was going to be used. It was going to be just south of Baltimore over to the Tollchester area. Originally, the first one actually was vetoed by President Franklin Roosevelt. Ironically, the argument was that the army did not support a bridge across the Chesapeake because what happens if it collapses? It pretty much cuts off Baltimore from the Chesapeake. And that was the logic that said, now we don't want to bridge over the Chesapeake right now. It's ironic since we saw the same thing happen in Baltimore Harbor itself. Later, it became just a money issue. The second world war intervened. But in 1946, the effort to build a bridge picked up steam. And once again, if you look at the newspapers, the argument is we've got to do it or Philadelphia is going to take over the Eastern shore. This thing comes up time and time again. And then eventually in obviously in 52. Ironically, when Governor Hogan proposed three routes for the new bridge, one of them was right to Claver. And if you live in this area, the idea of a bridge, it was actually going to be right on my house, I think was where the bridge was going to end. ⁓ They probably wouldn't even give us the courtesy of an exit ramp. We'd have to go to Easton to get on the bridge. But it's nonsensical. There's just no, the road here can't handle more than a couple of cars a minute. So I don't think that was ever a serious proposal. So you mentioned briefly sort of this idea that maybe there's a future for fairies. there, mean, as somebody who deeply understands maritime history, has published on different topics associated with all of this and obviously went into great detail on Clayburn and its story and the boom that happened there and all the things that we've talked about. Is there a future for fairies? either in Maryland or beyond? Could we ever see ourselves go back in that direction? know, it's a question I get asked a lot. while the book talks about clayburn, I'm really using that experience as a way of describing the much bigger story about how you cross bodies of water like the Chesapeake and continue journeys. The problem with a ferry system is frequency of the ferries. So at its peak, before the bridge was built, a ferry left Sandy Point near Annapolis carrying cars every 10 to 15 minutes. And so if you miss a ferry, you wait another 15 minutes for the next one. If we had a ferry system now, let's say the ferry runs every three hours. Well, if you miss it, now you're stuck for three hours. And so the average transit time isn't the length of the ferry, it's how long it takes to take the ferry, get on and off, and the potential wait if you miss it, if you're five minutes late. So frequency is what drives it. I think it's going to be difficult to design a ferry system with the required frequency that makes economic sense when there's a bridge right next to it. What might make sense is a ferry system which is more about tourism. Hey, let's hop on the boat. We'll go over to St. Michael's, have a couple of beers on the way over and spend the day shopping and then catch it coming back. That could work. I don't really see much probability of a ferry system, you know, structured to carry cars instead of the Bay Bridge. And this is from a guy who commuted by ferry to work for four years in Australia and loved every minute of it. Great way to commute. And why does it work in places like that? Or I've been to Seattle where there's a bunch of ferries and a system out there. Is it just because there's a much greater need? ⁓ If we didn't have the Bay Bridge, we would have to have a ferry system then, I suppose. It's just sort of a need issue? It's a need issue. out in Seattle, I was just out in Seattle taking the ferries out to all San Juan Islands. There's no bridge. You got no choice. So of course you'll take a ferry. In a place like Australia and other urban areas, there's a lot of density. And so you can justify high frequency travel, even if it doesn't carry cars. These are just passenger ferries. know, the Eastern shore, except Kent Island is relatively sparsely populated on the coast. You got to go down to Cambridge before you start to see a big population center again. And, you know, Kent Island has the bridge. So, you you don't need the ferry system there. So I'm a little bit, I'd love to see them come back. But I just don't think. car ferries will probably be seen on the bay again. Yeah, it's interesting. you know, we wouldn't be doing our job here. I obviously we talk about this from the preservation angle. And you sort of open the story with a conversation about a resource that sparked the question. You you saw the sort of these these rotting piers and what is all that? And then trying to figure that out. What today is left that speaks to this era in in history and Is there an effort afoot to try and document and preserve any of these resources? Are some of them preserved? What's left today tangibly that speaks to this era? So the two things of history I like, one is if it involves the water, but the other is I like history you can touch. That's not completely gone, but maybe hidden. And so it turns out there was a lot of the research I did is what's left. And I was visiting a couple north of St. Michael's and we're chatting. in their front yard. I said, you you realize a railroad used to run through your front yard. And they're like, what? They had no idea. And you can still see where the railroad line ran. If you look at aerial photos of Claiborne, Google Earth, for example, you can almost see it's where the people's gardens are in their backyard is where the railroad line ran. And the high voltage power lines pretty much are always the railroad right away. But the original ferry terminal built in 1919 for the car ferry, is a house in Claiborne now. And in the book I've got before and after pictures, the replacement ferry terminal that was built in the early 1930s is another house today in Claiborne. There was a restaurant at the ferry wharf called the Seagull Inn. I found it. It's a caretaker's cottage at a farm in a nearby community called Bosman. There was a ⁓ question of a building of uncertain use, most likely the bootlegger speakeasy. during Prohibition, which I believe is now located at a house just north of St. Michael's. You know, a lot of the stuff is still around. The last ferry to run to Claiborne was scrapped three years ago. It spent the next 70 years running on Lake Champlain called the Adirondack, and it just got scrapped. ⁓ The two big car ferries that served Mattapeak from Annapolis, both were transferred to Seattle and became part of the Washington State ferry system. One is a float. To this day, it's up in British Columbia serving as a floating base for scallop farmers. The other one is a ground on a little place called Kentron Island off Seattle, where it's slowly sinking into the mud. You know, they bought it and they were going to try to turn it into a restaurant. Word of advice to everyone thinking about buying a ferry for use as a restaurant. Don't. It gets tried all the time. It never works. Why doesn't it work? That's a bold statement. Why does it never work? I think people locate them and out of the way areas thinking that folks will beat a path to them and they don't. There was one in Pocomoke City here on the Eastern Shore and it didn't work so they moved it to Annapolis and it didn't work in part because it was during World War II and the Navy blocked it all from access. They're expensive. It's easier to build a building. The romance of dining aboard a ferry. Maybe it appeals to some people. I'm not sure it's all that critical or that intriguing. But certainly the track record, my favorite is the John ⁓ Dennis, which was a big ferry for the car ferry system. They were going to convert it into a restaurant. was the ferry that rammed the Chesapeake Bay Bridge two weeks before the bridge opened. Like a last effort to knock down the bridge. They say the steering cable broke. The family of the captain that was in charge said he used to ⁓ frequently be inebriated when he was driving his ferry. So maybe that was the cause. But in any case, they ⁓ converted to a restaurant. The thing caught on fire and burned is if it refused to see its role diminished from a car ferry to just a place where people would eat lunch. So maybe there's a ⁓ curse that's associated with these ambitions. So a couple final questions as we wrap up here. Well, first off, what are you working on next? Because obviously, you're passionate about maritime heritage and history. It doesn't seem like you'll stop at Claiborne. ⁓ What can we expect next? are you working on something? I am. In August of 1813, the Royal Navy came to the Chesapeake. This is the year before they came in Burn, Washington. They landed on Kent Island, which is just north of where I am. And they twice launched expeditions in the vicinity of the village of St. Michael's, a direct attack on August 10th and a major landing of 2000 troops on August 26th. That story's never been properly told or completely told. So I am going into great depths. I've just got the muster roles of the major British warships that were involved. I'm getting ship logs, there are papers in the UK that have never been fully explored. So I'm going to tell the story. of St. Michael's in August 1813. It'll probably get me kicked out of the town when it gets told. There are some legends that I will unfortunately have to puncture. But, you know, it's an interesting story. Twice the British attempted to invade the area and twice the local militia, farmers, shopkeepers, watermen stood up in force and convinced the British it wasn't worth trying to attack St. Michael's. And I think ⁓ that's a really cool story to tell. Well, when that one is done, we'll definitely have you back. I mean, you would think in places like this, and we talk to people all across country like this, that some of these stories would be already well documented. But there's a lot of rich ground for new research and documentation on these sorts of topics. So that one sounds fascinating. You know, obviously as a historian, we're now in 2026. It's the 250th anniversary of the founding of the country of independence. I'm curious, you know, as a historian and as someone who lives in a little small town now, but has traveled widely, what are you hoping to see come out of this? What do you hope to see in your town? And do you personally have any plans for the 250th? Not specifically do I have plans yet, but I'll be doing something. Certainly the local community will. make a big deal. have our local annual July 4th parade of farm tractors and wagons and kids on bikes. It's actually quite charming. But for me, the thing that I want to reflect on is this wasn't a once and done event. You know, we didn't find ourselves today on a path that was inevitable from 1776. you know, when we were formed as a democracy, we were a democracy for white men. And in some cases, it's property owners. And then over time, we embraced black men. And then it took us another 70 years for women to get their full rights. And then it took us another 50 years for the rights of the blacks in some communities to actually be enfranchised fully. So I view this 250-year history as an evolving story over time. And so for me, the question is, how we got here is fascinating in the journey. Where do we go from here? what's the journey that has not yet been fulfilled? I fear personally that we're backsliding in some of these areas right now. So I really want to celebrate all of the elements of our journey, starting with 1776, but not forgetting the Civil War and women's suffrage and the Civil Rights Movement and the gay rights movement and everything else that's allowed us to embrace more of our population over time. Yeah, I know. think it's an interesting perspective. I know that the Maryland 250 Commission which I serve on is looking at it as 250 years of American history, not just 250 years ago. And I think that that's an interesting way of looking at it. And that question of what does the next 250 look like? mean, that's a hard one to answer. I don't think if you had asked in 1776, what's the next 250 look like, they could have possibly imagined where we would be today. So yeah, that's an interesting perspective as a historian to look at it from that vantage point. ⁓ Before we go, Marty, this has been a lot of fun. We would definitely have you back. We would love to chat with you more. ⁓ But one of the more challenging questions we normally ask if you have a favorite historic place or site ⁓ or some place, sometimes we have to soften it a little bit because it's very hard, a place you've been to recently that you really loved. Well, I've been to 38 countries. If I think about where physically standing in a spot changed my view of history, I'd actually pick Antietam. You you read about the battle, you read about the Union troops trying to cross a bridge, you know, to get to the Confederate lines, and you read about the Confederate troops being up on a ridge shooting down at them. Okay. But when you stand on that bridge and you look down at that bridge and you imagine 5,000 troops trying to cross it and being held off for hours, it just... The terrain just communicates a very, different story. You read about the sunken road, okay, you see the sunken road and you see how troops could approach and you wouldn't see them. So for a lot of these things, the terrain matters and being there in person to me had a really big impact on my understanding and appreciation. I love that answer. I was on a podcast recently that ⁓ The host listens to Preservecast, so they cornered me and asked me my favorite historic place, and I had to answer. Interestingly, ironically, coincidentally, I picked Antietam and picked the hike there down by the bridge just because of the confluence of history and nature and the serenity of the place in contrast with what it was 160 odd years ago. You and I share a common affinity and appreciation for Antietam. So perfect place to end the conversation with Marty Bollinger. We've been talking with him all about his new book, When Clayburn Bridged the Chesapeake, the Rise and Fall of the Fairy Era. We'll put a link in the show notes. It is a great read, whether you're a Marylander or not. It's just an interesting look at infrastructure in the United States, how it impacts place, how it impacted preservation of those places, what those places look like today and more of that and we'll definitely have Marty back when his new volume on the War of 1812 in Maryland comes out. Thanks so much for joining us today Marty this has been wonderful. My pleasure, great to talk to you. Thanks for listening to Preservecast. To dig deeper into this episode's story, head over to Preservecast.org for show notes and our collection of previous episodes. Don't forget to engage with this podcast by subscribing, commenting, and leaving a review. Follow along on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Preservecast for even more. Preservecast is currently recorded in Walkersville, and sponsored by the 1772 Foundation and powered by Preservation Maryland. Thanks for listening and keep on preserving.