PreserveCast: Come along with us as we explore the broad world of preservation and the work being done to preserve, interpret, and save our past in a 21st century world. From aquaculture to historic foodways to forensic modeling, we're talking weekly with experts from across the globe. This is your host, Nick Redding. Welcome to Preservecast. Did you know that the Campaign for Historic Trades, which is powered by Preservation Maryland, is the sponsor of three registered apprenticeship programs? The campaign also hosts workshops across the nation, maybe even one in your backyard. Visit HistoricTrades.org to learn more and find a way to learn a trade. This is Nick Gridding. You are once again listening to PreserveCast. Today, we're sitting down with Emily Hubner. who is the director of operations and programs at the heart of the Civil War heritage area. And we're gonna learn all about that and what that means and the work that Emily is doing along with the rest of the heritage area on their 250th GEO tour, which I think is a really cool concept that other organizations and other institutions out there could take advantage of and might be interested in. But before we get there, we love to get to know our guests a little bit and love to kind of dive into their background and what got them into preservation. So Emily, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where'd you grow up and what led you to get involved in preservation and in particular, heritage tourism and the preservation associated with that? Sure. Hello, Nick, thank you so much for having me. ⁓ So I grew up in Frederick, ⁓ which is now where my office is based as well. ⁓ And growing up in Frederick, you know, downtown Frederick is such an interesting place with lots of historic buildings. It is kind of the walkable community that we talk about when we talk about people being able to go places on foot. ⁓ I grew up not in the heart of downtown, and so I would sometimes do the long, long walk downtown as a teenager, where I was just really fascinated by ⁓ the built environment ⁓ and what it's like in a preserved downtown like this. And so I think that's part of my interest in preservation. ⁓ But I think really a love for preservation comes by way of ⁓ conservation and comes from natural history as well. ⁓ Growing up in this area, ⁓ know, the places that I'm promoting now with the heritage area, have Monocacy National Battlefield, Antietam National Battlefield, we have Catoctin Mountain Park, we have all of these incredible places where you can get outside. And when you get there, you have trails, you have, you know, this river that has, you know, obviously, you know, geologic time involved with it. And you also oftentimes have a built environment when you go there too, ⁓ that dates to earlier in the 20th century or back to the 19th or earlier, depending on where you are. And so as a kid, spending weekends, going places to take hikes with my dad or go canoeing on the river, things like that, ⁓ just having questions about the place where I live, which I think is probably an entryway for a lot of people, ⁓ just wanting to better understand. where they are and what their place is in it and how we came to be where we are today. And it's harder to ask those questions if you don't have the visual markers out there. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, you know, what a place to grow up in the center of Maryland. And today is a Maryland story, it's obviously it appeals to a lot of people. And ⁓ the project that you're working on, I think, resonates certainly beyond Maryland. Though I'm curious, so you went from liking places to then working in the field. How did that trip ⁓ take? Sure, ⁓ I was actually, so I was a history major in college, but I was a double major with history and Spanish, with a minor in Latin American studies. And so I always thought that I would go to work doing something probably with language skills. I didn't really expect to be using my history education in the way that I do now. ⁓ But after college, I wound up with ⁓ an internship at the Maryland State Archives with the study of the legacy of slavery in Maryland there, working under Chris Haley ⁓ and Emily Olin Squires there and getting to know all of the archivists there and working on that project as a researcher was just a fascinating experience that also involved getting out of the archives at times and going to do research in historical societies and other repositories on the Eastern Shore. ⁓ So I was an intern at the Maryland State Archives and then I also got to work on the Maryland 400 Project, which is revolutionary war history and it's related to the first Maryland regiment and the Battle of Brooklyn. ⁓ And then after I finished with that project, they actually brought me on as a full team member for the study of the legacy of slavery at the archives for a while. ⁓ And ⁓ so that was an incredible experience getting to know people at the archives, getting to know the researchers that come in, getting to attend conferences and learn more about the field and the people who are in it. ⁓ And through that experience, I love research, I love the archives. ⁓ I also love working in the land of the living. ⁓ So as much as I enjoy historical research, I think making the connection to us today is something that's really appealing to me and is something that I've been able to do with the work here at the Heritage Area. Yeah, I mean, that's a good segue to talking about a heritage area. I think some people are familiar with the concept. Maybe they've seen a sign on the side of the road. Or they might be more familiar with a national heritage area. They've heard about national heritage areas. Not every state has state heritage areas. So what is a state heritage area? Like in a nutshell, what do they do? And then we can talk more about the particular one that you work for. But what is the role of a state heritage area? Sure, so Maryland is so special in this. ⁓ We actually have 13 different heritage areas across our entire state. And so, you know, that's from the Eastern Shore, you know, all the way West. And ⁓ so our heritage areas, and we all operate a little bit differently. So anything I say, you know, may, you know, may. apply more to us than to other heritage areas. ⁓ But really our reason for existence is economic development through heritage tourism. Because one of the most powerful methods by which we can keep our historic assets is to make sure that they benefit the people who live here. And so one way to do that is through heritage tourism, through that power of place, because people want to come here, they want to spend time, they want to spend some money. And all of that ⁓ benefits the people who live here and allows us to keep the things that make us special and You know some communities struggle with with kind of making that argument ⁓ And I don't mean struggle in that there's an argument to be made but not decision makers don't always ⁓ You know, they don't always follow through on support for that So how do you think that these heritage areas have been so successful? What have you been able to really document that? that investment and show decision makers why this is something to continue to support. ⁓ And what does that support look like? Like how do how does the support come in? Does it come in? You know, because everything costs money. So is this funded at the state level? Is it funded locally? How is it all kind of come together? Sure. So in terms of making the argument for why heritage tourism has an impact. ⁓ We know that, for example, at the Frederick Visitor Center, they ask everyone who comes in, what brought you here? And the top reason that people mention is history. ⁓ And so it's history followed by outdoor experiences, followed by food and beverage, I think. I'm pretty sure that's still the top three. But every year they present a report on what brings people to our county. And of course, the heart of the Civil War heritage area also includes Carroll, Frederick, and Washington counties. ⁓ And so the Frederick Visitor Center has been able to report that history is the draw for people. ⁓ And we also see that reflected in Carroll and Washington counties too. ⁓ You know, in Washington county, they have this incredible just selection of outdoor experiences that you can have from the C &O Canal to Antietam National Battlefield, you know, along with all of their incredible museums. And ⁓ so that's something that they know makes them special and that they're able to leverage. And so ⁓ they know people come to do those things. And so their CVB, their Convention and Visitors Bureau, invests in those things. And the same is true in Carroll County. Carroll County is on the trail to Gettysburg, which is a national draw, an international draw even. And so we know that travelers from across the country are traveling through Carroll County and they're stopping places like at the Carroll County Farm Museum, they're stopping in downtown Westminster, they're staying at Historic Antrim in Taney Town, they're stopping at the Union Mills Homestead, and all of that fleshes out their experience at Gettysburg. ⁓ And so speaking of the investment, at the heart of the Civil War heritage area, we work so closely with our DMOs. A DMO is a destination marketing organization and we have great relationships with ⁓ the tourism entities in Carroll, Frederick and Washington counties to work with them in this inter-county way where we don't need to worry about the boundaries of the counties when we are promoting this whole region to people. Because when people come and visit, they're not concerned about these political Boundaries across our we wrap ourselves sort of around the actual about things like that and you know It's you know sort of think about it yourself like when you if you visit someplace Are you concerned about whether or not you cross the county boundary line or the township line? Like that's probably irrelevant You're gonna keep going to get the you know the lobster that you want in Maine or you're gonna keep going to you know visit the the historic site in Utah, whatever it is ⁓ And I think that is a big takeaway, probably like a big picture one that I don't think our heritage areas here in Maryland get enough credit for is sort of that regional approach. And now some of them are specific to a certain county or specific to a certain subdivision. But ⁓ I think the regional approach is just so valuable because it pulls together themes and topics rather than stopping it at boundary lines. obviously your theme is the Civil War. Why is it that people call it the heart of the Civil War heritage area? What is the point of all of that? Sure. So we are the heart of the Civil War heritage area because for our region, Carroll, Frederick, and Washington counties, the Civil War kind of really is our calling card. You know, the Maryland campaign of 1862, every single year during the Civil War, the troops passed through this region and it left a huge mark on our landscape, on our communities, and so in the history that we're able to tell. ⁓ And of course, we as a heritage area are not limited to the Civil War. As people who are into history, we know that 1861 is connected to the 1840s, which is connected to the 1770s. And so you can't do anything in a vacuum, of course. We're not exclusively interested in the war years or in military history. Although, of course, it's very important to us. ⁓ But this is sort of, ⁓ the Civil War is something that, throughout the country and internationally, if you say the American Civil War oftentimes, people know what that is. It means something to them. It creates an expectation for an experience which you can have in these three counties. And then when we get people here with the Civil War, with that history that we have, they're open to everything else that we have too. The centuries of agricultural history, all kinds of different pieces of our social and cultural history that we have here in this region. Yeah, it always strikes me as sort of like a little wild when you think about it that like somebody's job and many people's jobs are still tied to an event that happened 160 years ago that the Civil War still resonates. It's still having this economic impact in some ways, you know, those decisions that were made then. So, you know, in terms of like getting people out and engaged, you know, there's like the traditional ways when people think of like touring a battlefield or not even just a battlefield but any historic place or a historic community you know there's the sort of the standard you're walking to where you go to historic house museum you maybe do a driving tour or you know you go to an art gallery or whatever it might be and those are all great you promote those and that's one way of engaging but you know there's a lot of different audiences they engage with historic places in different ways And one of them that you've captured that I think is interesting and what we wanted to talk about is the concept of a geo tour. So tell us before we get into like what your geo tour is, if someone's listening to this and they're in Peoria and they're like, well, maybe I should have a geo tour. What is a geo tour? And how do you even approach doing something like this if you're even marginally interested in having your own or you want to learn more about yours? What is, let's set the stage for a GeoTour and then we'll talk about yours in particular. Sure. Okay. So to talk about what a GeoTour is, first, let's talk about what geocaching is. I'm sure that a lot of people listening will know what geocaching is. It's been around for many years. ⁓ Geocaching is, they call it, it's a ⁓ real world treasure hunt where you are given the coordinates to find your geocache and you have to find it. And so, ⁓ This is something that you can do with a smartphone. think back in the day, people were using these GPS devices, but it's something that has, to my understanding, and I'm not a historian of geocaching, and geocachers are serious about this. And so there are many historians of geocaching out there, and I'm not one of them. ⁓ But really, this is something connected to ⁓ satellite GPS ⁓ capabilities and the internet, where people go out to go and find hidden geocaches. And the thing is there are geocaches hidden everywhere, you know, where I am, where you are, wherever you're listening to this. If you were to pull up geocaching.com, if you were to get the app, if you were to look it up online, you will find probably literally dozens of geocaches within just several miles of you. ⁓ This is a whole world that exists where geocachers, which is people who geocache. are interested in finding these hidden geocaches. ⁓ so geocaches are generally hidden on public property where people get permission to place them. A geocache is going to be a physical Tupperware type container, usually. It's going to have a log in it for someone to record their geocaching handle, their geocaching name. Oftentimes people leave little pins or little goodies in there to pass along and put in other geocaches. So you wind up with, you know, a travel bug, it's called, that starts somewhere in California that winds up, you know, in Florida over time with traveling geocachers. ⁓ But just to go to basics, geocaching is you go and you find a little container that is hidden somewhere. ⁓ Now, we have such a thing as a virtual geocache that doesn't leave a mark on the landscape. That's really helpful for folks who want to be able to geocache on federal land, for example. is that like a Pokemon Go kind of sort of thing? I mean, that's like a virtual geocache, isn't it, in a way? So a little bit. That's how I imagined it too. Usually, if there's a virtual geocache, what you do is you go to a place... and you have to answer questions to log it. And so the question will be, you know, who is the artist of the painting that's on the interpretive wayside, you know, in this particular cemetery? And the answer to that will be Charles Wilson Peale. And you'll put that in there and send it on to the person who placed that virtual geocache. And so often it's knowledge based, actually, you have to go and answer questions to prove that you went there and to find to find information in that case oftentimes. So it's almost like a virtual or a digital treasure hunt kind of. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And so we have physical geocaches. We have virtual geocaches. ⁓ There is such a thing as an adventure lab, which is kind of where you string together a number of virtual caches to eventually lead to a physical one. This is a whole world with lots of different sort of types of caches, types of ways to find things. So let me ask this. this is like a whole, and this is always fascinating. think I've said this on other episodes where it's like I love learning about something that I have no knowledge of that just is like existing out there and I'm not aware of it. Because I think I was like marginally aware of geocaching, but probably only because of the work that you guys have done. ⁓ But now, you you're opening my eyes to more of it. How did you guys get into it? Is it just does it just so happen that like Heart of the Civil War heritage area is really attuned to geocachers? Did you have a geocacher on the board? Because there's a lot of organizations out there that could do stuff like this, but don't you guys somehow have seemingly entered into this ⁓ this this brave new world? How did you dip your toe into it? Did someone approach you and say you really should have one or how did that all come about? And then we can talk about the first one you had and now this 250th one. Sure. That's a great question. So we were involved with geocaching before I even came on board at the Heritage Area. And I started with the Heritage Area in 2017. And so my predecessor, Ani Gellis, she ⁓ had started this GeoTrail project. And I'm not sure how she came up with the idea of geocaching, but she wound up connecting with ⁓ members of the Maryland Geocaching Society. And they wound up being the guides to this entire world. None of this, none of the GeoTrail in the past, and none of this GeoTour itself would have been possible without the assistance of expert geocachers that we have in our community. So they're like your trail guide. Yes, absolutely. My fairy godmother, my trail guide, all of you. My partner in this project and the guy who has been key to the success of all geocaching products that have come through the Heritage Area. His name is Mark Neuberger. He's a former president of the Maryland Geocaching Society and has been a longtime friend to the Heritage Area and guide for us through this world. is it that Well, I guess the question I was going to ask, not so much about that, but is, ⁓ have you become a geocacher ⁓ as a result of this? I'm curious, like, do you just kind of like, are you kind of always thinking about it now? Like, have you gotten into it as a result? Has the whole team kind of just like always looking for things now? So I think at the height of this project, when we were, you working on pulling it off, I was definitely thinking about geocaching a lot. I can tell you that I have logged all of the geocaches that are near the office. looking for inspiration, looking to figure out, you know, are there complexities to this that I need to be understanding, which is always true. There's so much that goes into geocaching. ⁓ And so I am an occasional geocacher. I'll use the, we have this MD Civil War account that we use for work that I'm able to use. And I'll tell you, we went to, to help promote this, we went to an event called Geo Woodstock. which I believe is held annually and it is an absolutely massive event. If you think that this is a small community, that is not the case. This is huge. Hundreds and hundreds of people attend Geo Woodstock every year, traveling from across the country, across the world to come and be in community with other geocachers. And usually one of the perks of the travel is they get to log new caches. And so we had this in Morgantown, West Virginia. which as you know is many hours from Frederick and the Frederick visitor center had people coming from Geo Woodstock on day trips to the Frederick visitor center to collect the cash that was there in that visitor center. And so the impact of geocaching, geocaches are such an enthusiastic community who are delighted to travel, who are delighted to go to these sites to collect geocaches. ⁓ And so it's really, ⁓ just a wonderful audience to be able to speak to and to be able to serve. is Geo Woodstock, do you have to find it? Do you have to use a Geocache? Is it kind of like hidden? Luckily, the barrier to entry is much lower than that. Although I'm sure there were probably certain, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that maybe there were events happening at Geo Woodstock that you had to go and find in a puzzled way. I would be disappointed if there weren't. So let me ask you this. ⁓ Talk to us about the 250th ⁓ Geo Trail itself and what you're doing in this particular, in this Geo Tour that you have. ⁓ Where are these ones taking place? How can listeners get involved? Walk us through what it would take to actually do this if people were interested. Absolutely. So the Heart of the Civil War Heritage Area, US 250th Geo Tour. is a whole geocaching experience. ⁓ We are going to take geocachers through Carroll, Frederick, and Washington counties ⁓ to over 20 sites across these three counties. And when you're geocaching, each geocache has a page. And so the page for each historic site tells you something about the history of that site, which usually you're going to be reading before you get there. And then when you get there, of course, that story is fleshed out and contextualized by everything there is to see and do at the site. while you're looking for the geocache. And so geotours... ⁓ And so a geotour is this sort of added value thing ⁓ that you have in geocaching where you're able to stitch together multiple geocaches to create a longer experience, to tell a longer story. And so this geotour is something that ⁓ we pay a hosting fee for. There are many geotours across the country where you can go and explore a region, go to places you wouldn't have gone to otherwise ⁓ in search of these geocaches. And so previously we've had geo trails, which are kind of an informal version of this. It's a DIY version where you create multiple geocaches, you label them. This is part of a geo trail and people follow it. A geo tour is something that is hosted by geocaching.com by the folks who are over the entire sort of structure of geocaching and you can search for specific geotours. And so this is a common thing that oftentimes like tourism departments will put together and other heritage areas, other groups that operate across regions like we do in order to lead people through the area and get them into our small towns, get them to lesser visited sites or very visited sites. We've definitely run the gamut in order to get people out across Carol Frederick and Washington counties. it part of a broader, because I mean, the 250th is a big thing. A lot of people are thinking about it. A lot of people trying to figure out ways to get people to their community for the 250th. Is there a broader 250th geo tour that you're kind of integrating into or is this something special that you guys have worked on? And how could others, if they wanted to like have an ad on or they wanted to have one in their community, how might they do this? Sure, this is something special that we've created. I'm not aware of any overarching 250th GeoTour or geocaching structures, but I do know other communities with the 250th are deciding to do things like GeoTours. When I was at GeoWoodstock, I believe there was at least one entity in West Virginia that was trying to put together something that looked similar to me. And we kind of just came to this independently. ⁓ And so if you want to get involved with geocaching though as a site ⁓ or potentially as an individual, I think the most important thing you can do is get in touch with local geocachers because they are really going to be the guides for you to this world. ⁓ You're certainly capable of learning how to do it on your own and of learning the rules, ⁓ but it's just so much easier and you're going to find a lot more success if you're tapped into the geocaching community already. Yeah, don't geocache without a guide. Get a guide to get started. At least if you're going to do it yourself. Now, if people ⁓ are listening or like, okay, I just want to try this out. You know what, I'm going to be in that area or maybe I want to travel that area or maybe I can't get to that area. But again, I'm in Peoria and I want to try out geocaching myself. What's the way that they do this? How do they do your particular one? Like walk us through this. We'll put links in the show notes so that there's like a way that you can just jump into these. like, is there like a, like what's the app you use and like just walk somebody through this if they were as if they had never, never done this before. Absolutely. So to get involved with geocaching, you're going to want to get the geocaching app on your phone and you're going to want to create a geocaching account. This is something that is free to do. You don't have to pay to participate in geocaching. And so you can create an account on your phone. You can go to geocaching.com online and create an account there as well. And once you do that, it will open up a map to all of the geocaches that are around you that you can go and try to find. And so that's a great way to get started and to just go and start looking for geocaches. If you're looking for our geotour in specific, ⁓ you can Google geocaching geotours. And the main geocaching page for all of the GeoTours across the country is going to display. if you're in Peoria, you can find the GeoTour that's closest to you. Or you can find ours, the Heart of the Civil War Heritage Area US 250th GeoTour. It's kind of a long name. But there's a limited number of GeoTours out there because it does cost a fee to be hosted as a GeoTour. And so you know that we've put in a ton of effort into creating an experience for you. Interesting. ⁓ Well, that's like a great like pathway to do this. kind of wanted to like not even lying. I kind of want to download it and poke around and see if there's one, you know, in our neck of the woods here. ⁓ I think it's a great project and it's not just like I said, it's not just that I wanted to talk about it from the perspective of what a cool program and what a cool opportunity if you're visiting this area, which many people will be for the 250th, whether they go to national parks or they're on their way to DC. ⁓ lots of reasons that you might find yourself in the heart of the Civil War heritage area. you're driving north out of DC, it's hard to miss it ⁓ because it's ⁓ Frederick Carroll in Washington County right there. ⁓ But I also think, as I said, it's a cool opportunity for groups to think about this and there's low cost ways to get involved. ⁓ And then obviously you can build up to become a GEO tour. Like Emily and the rest of the folks at the heart of the Civil War heritage area So we'll put links in the show notes to that before we come to a little bit of a conclusion here though. I'm You know, we're we're talking to everybody about the 250th and some people have a more of a direct connection to the way the 250th will be commemorated than others do obviously we've been we've used the word 250 like 250 times in this episode, so You have been doing a lot of thinking about this I know that you guys have been convening people regularly to talk about it. You've been hosting events. Like you're really deep into this. What do you hope? what if you're in your mind, what's the best case scenario for we get to the end of 2026 and you're like, you know what, that was successful. That's what I was hoping for the public history community when it came to the two 50th. Where, where, does, where is that in your head space? This is such a hard question. I hope. I hope other guests on this podcast have also said this is difficult because I think success is going to look different for every site. Success is going to look different for every community. think that something that I've been thinking about a lot lately is the emphasis on community and what our historic sites can do and what our historic sites and museums and public lands represent for us. You know, there are places for reflection and inspiration. These are places that can give us strength. Now, of course, all of these are going to be sort of through the lens of the individual visitor. The vision for the heart of the Civil War heritage area is that people are going to take the experiences that they have here with them into the future. It's going to touch them in some way. It's going to change them in some way. And I think when I hear people talking about ⁓ meaningful bicentennial experiences, it usually is something formative for them as a kid or something for them as a family. And so I hope that this is something that our historic sites really do best is having this kind of individual impact on people where they're able to see themselves, they're able to ⁓ see that they're going to carry this into the future and that it's going to change them in some way. ⁓ And so I know that that's you know, I really like that mean I what I like about that is I think the takeaway I get from that which I think is important for all of us to hear who are Involved in this or thinking about this or trying to do to do good work in this is that? It's about meaningful experiences. It's about how do you engage with? ⁓ you know and leave a lasting impression on someone and maybe not get so caught up in the hoopla of big and bold and exciting. ⁓ Although that's important too, but it doesn't have to be overwhelming because well, you're right. When you talk to people about 1976, it's I went to a parade and I dressed up and I felt like I knew about history then or I really got the history bug at that moment. There's a whole generation of people who went on to careers in public history and preservation and house museums and all sorts of things. who were inspired in that moment. So if we can capture inspiration and have a lasting and memorable experience for individuals, then that's kind of, is that what you're saying? That's the success? I think so. And of course, you know, that's going to be hard for us to measure a success. And so we're going to have other benchmarks, of course, but, know, it feels like a personal kind of question about, what this is going to look like as a success. And I think every ⁓ Every visit offers the opportunity for someone to have that kind of transformational experience. I know our GeoTour is something where, I mean, I'm looking at our latest report and the number of logs we have on this GeoTour, there are 5,000 visits associated with this entire GeoTour in our first four months alone. And some of those are going to be people just dropping in, picking up the geocache, recording that log, and then going out to lunch or something like that. But some of those are gonna be longer visits. Some of those are gonna be people on road trips with their families coming to get to understand American history and get to understand the context for the moment that we're in and to find themselves in it. I think history, it doesn't always offer reassurance, but it often does offer hope and it often does offer kind of a stabilizing force too to understand the things people went through in the past as well. And so I think every visit offers the chance for someone to have that kind of transformative experience that we hope they will have. I think that ⁓ that was an excellent answer to the question. So you did a great job there. ⁓ The other question that really makes people squirm is their favorite historic place or site. So ⁓ we've gotten a little softer in years and we've said, well, can be the the best place you've recently visited or that you really enjoyed. Okay, so, but you're still limiting it to one, Yeah, one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just one. Just one. And so I would say, you know, this has been a favorite for a while, a favorite among favorites, I would say. ⁓ These days, I'm really loving Monocacy National Battlefield because it's close to home for me and ⁓ my dog loves it, my two-year-old loves it, it has approachable trails, you've got the river, you've got the fields. ⁓ My kid and my dog both love the cows that are there at various times. And so ⁓ it's something that's in my backyard that makes my life better every time I go there. Yeah, I would agree with that. is, you know, not always have I visited these places that people mentioned, but I have obviously visited Monocacy Battlefield and good choice. It's got a little bit of everything, no matter what you want. It's got a little, it's got some water, it's got some hills, it's got some ag, it's got history, history and spades, it's got monuments and historic buildings. So it makes sense. It makes sense that you would like it and that your dog and child would like it as well. ⁓ Well, this has been a lot of fun, eye-opening, ⁓ and I think a great little ⁓ different way of approaching ⁓ preservation and engagement of audiences. And we need every tool we can get. So thanks so much for joining us today, Emily. This has been wonderful. Absolutely, Nick. Thank you so much for having me. And if anyone wants to talk about geocaching and how to get started for their site, I would be delighted to talk more. ⁓ In fact, I'm sure this is probably going to come out after the Small Museums Conference, but I will be presenting on the Geotour there too. So we're trying to help other organizations connect with this geocaching audience. Awesome. Well, we will make sure that we have your info up there over at the heart of the Civil War Heritage Area. ⁓ and ⁓ maybe someday we'll get a Preservecast geo tour going. We'll see. That could be fun. Thanks, Emily. Happy to help. All right. Thank you so much, Thanks for listening to Preservecast. To dig deeper into this episode's story, head over to Preservecast.org for show notes and our collection of previous episodes. Don't forget to engage with this podcast by subscribing, commenting, and leaving a review. Follow along on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Preservecast for even more. Preservecast is currently recorded in Walkersville, and sponsored by the 1772 Foundation and powered by Preservation Maryland. Thanks for listening and keep on preserving.